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  #21  
Old 11-16-2010, 06:01 AM
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apkp777 apkp777 is offline
 
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Don't mean to drift this thread, but I'd like to buy an IPAD but don't have AT&T. Do I need to spend the extra $$ and get the 3G version or just a cheaper unit and add the GPS antenna?
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  #22  
Old 11-16-2010, 07:15 AM
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craigvince craigvince is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apkp777 View Post
Don't mean to drift this thread, but I'd like to buy an IPAD but don't have AT&T. Do I need to spend the extra $$ and get the 3G version or just a cheaper unit and add the GPS antenna?
Buy the cheaper unit and buy the GPS. The built-in GPS is not so great anyway. It works, but the external GPS is much better and WAAS. Also, if you were to buy the unit with the GPS built in and 3G, you don't have to subscribe to any services. The only reason they recommend the 3G iPad is because it has a built-in GPS. ForeFlight would not be very use without a GPS. Now, with the new external GPS, you don't need to spend the extra money on the 3G model UNLESS you're an AT&T customer AND you want the 3G service.
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  #23  
Old 11-16-2010, 08:44 AM
David Paule David Paule is offline
 
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You don't have to be an existing AT&T customer to use the 3G system. You'll have a new data contract even if you are. It's a separate thing.

Except for one instance which I've reported here at VAF, I've had excellent performance from the on-board GPS in the air. No dongles needed with that version of the iPad.

I have had problems when using the wi-fi system (the 3G version has wi-fi, 3G and GPS, all independent of each other). So far I've only tried to use that at home and can't rule out my system, although it seems fine with other devices. I've found that the 3G system is more reliable. But that might be my own iPad, might be my early, not updated OS.
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  #24  
Old 11-16-2010, 10:18 PM
brhackle brhackle is offline
 
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Disclaimer: I'm the lead developer and co-founder at Bad Elf, LLC.

Just got back from AOPA Summit and spent some time in the ForeFlight booth. It's great to see the excitement around the iPad in aviation. It's not perfect, but no platform is, and for the money I don't think it can be beat.

A few comments based on remarks earlier in the thread...

* Yes, only "Made for iPod" (MFi) certified devices can be linked to the iPad without jailbraking... right now the Bad Elf GPS and GNS (Bluetooth) devices are the only iPad-compatible devices on the market.

* There are pros and cons to the "dongle" versus Bluetooth form-factors, so it really depends on the pilot preference. Both support WAAS, 2.5-10m accuracy, good locks inside the cockpit, etc.

* The internal GPS on the iPad 3G has some serious limitations - once you're out of range of 3G cell towers, it can take minutes to reacquire a GPS lock, if it ever does. I heard this over and over again from pilots last week. Every corporate jet pilot I've met recently has told me the internal GPS on the iPad 3G does not work reliably enough at speed/altitude.

* I was able to get a solid GPS lock (iPad WiFi + Bad Elf GPS) on my Southwest flight from LAS to PHX last weekend - 565mph, 29K feet. Very cool, and something I've never seen with the internal GPS receiver on the iPad or iPhone.

* I saw the FlightGuide GPS-over-WiFi device at AOPA Summit. Neat idea, but it has a serious limitation -- it's not Apple authorized, so it will only work with their app.... going with a MFi-certified external GPS means it works with any and all apps, so you're not locked into a single app vendor, and can use it for non-aviation activities.

Happy to answer any other questions about GPS on the iPad, I've been living/breathing/flying this stuff for the last 12 months of my life And maybe if it goes well enough I'll finally be able to afford that RV-10 kit I've been drooling over for the last few years!

-Brett
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  #25  
Old 11-17-2010, 06:53 AM
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N395V N395V is offline
 
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Quote:
The internal GPS on the iPad 3G has some serious limitations - once you're out of range of 3G cell towers, it can take minutes to reacquire a GPS lock, if it ever does. I heard this over and over again from pilots last week. Every corporate jet pilot I've met recently has told me the internal GPS on the iPad 3G does not work reliably enough at speed/altitude
What role does 3G play in acquiring a GPS signal??????????????
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  #26  
Old 11-17-2010, 07:50 AM
brhackle brhackle is offline
 
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Originally Posted by N395V View Post
What role does 3G play in acquiring a GPS signal??????????????
Apple's 3G devices (iPhone, iPad) use Assisted-GPS to get a faster "lock" time, which is why you have an approximate location (80-150m) very quickly on these devices. It's based on 3G tower triangulation and/or georeferenced WiFi access point look-ups done against Apple's servers. What's interesting is that you get this small amount of 3G data usage for "free" on the iPad, even if you're not paying AT&T that month.

If you take the SIM out of the device, or use it in the boonies or at altitude, then you won't get any A-GPS data, and you'll see the true performance of the internal GPS receiver.

Don't get me wrong - when people ask which iPad to buy, I almost always recommend the 3G version. You can't beat the price and integration of GPS/3G, especially without a monthly contract. And the GPS features works great if you're on the ground with some nearby WiFi/3G coverage.

The iOS device will always pick the best GPS data available, so an external GPS receiver fills this performance gap regardless of which version of the iPad you're using.
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  #27  
Old 11-17-2010, 12:08 PM
Bavafa Bavafa is offline
 
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Location: Sacramento, CA
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What I am interested to see, is the affect of external GPS on the battery life of IPAD.

I have used my internal GPS on long flights (CA to GA) and had zero issue getting the GPS lock in a very short amount of time (seconds) and accuracy is normally in the range of 5m but it can be as inaccurate as 10m.

I have used an external Bluetooth GPS (Holux) with accuracy of 1m and ForeFlight has no issues with this GPS. I have not done any test regarding battery life of the IPAD when it is in communication with Bluetooth Holux GPS.
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  #28  
Old 11-17-2010, 01:02 PM
brhackle brhackle is offline
 
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Wow! Your GPS lock times are certainly not typical in the cockpit, from pireps I've gotten over the last few months. Did you have 3G connectivity at the time?

Jailbraking does open up the options for connecting to non-MFi Bluetooth receivers, no argument there. Just depends on how adventurous you are

As for battery life, I've found that screen brightness has more of an effect on battery life than than using Bluetooth, internal GPS, or external GPS, so it's hard to come up with a definitive number. I've had my iPad WiFi running with ForeFlight and the Bad Elf GPS connected for 8+ hours. Don't remember the percentage drop, but there was still plenty of juice.
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  #29  
Old 11-17-2010, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Happy to answer any other questions about GPS on the iPad, I've been living/breathing/flying this stuff for the last 12 months of my life And maybe if it goes well enough I'll finally be able to afford that RV-10 kit I've been drooling over for the last few years!

-Brett
Brett-

Does Bad Elf have any plans to develop a blue tooth GPS?
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  #30  
Old 11-17-2010, 02:00 PM
brhackle brhackle is offline
 
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Can't say just yet due to our license/NDA restrictions. But we should have some product announcements in the next 4-6 weeks. Stay tuned
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