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11-11-2010, 09:01 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,747
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LOL...good stuff guys...I'll reply sometime tomorrow morning. Off to bed now.
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11-12-2010, 04:52 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Lafayette, IN
Posts: 3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webb
Should Jeff have asked the controllor to mark the tape?
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Neat to be here ... you guys have a really neat group. I've wasted WAY to much time digging through past articles since finding this group.
The antenna is in the main wing tip. I was ~4000 AGL and 15 miles when I made 1st call and within ~8 miles when I started descending to stay clear.
I'm not sure if it was my proximity (I was <5 miles) or my turn to the North that allowed them to hear me. What I really don't get is why no-one but FWA and MFD have a fairly regular hard time hearing me.
What does "marking the tape" mean and where would I go / what would I do after asking them?
Thanks,
Jeff
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11-12-2010, 09:47 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,747
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Brantel....I called flight service today to get a more in depth answer...they didn't really know anything. If you file VFR then the flight plan will be tracked by flight service but it will not be entered into the ATC computer. The only way to get a VFR plan into the computer is if you get some controller to type one in, not great odds there, or file IFR and then change it to VFR after it is in the ATC computer. If you don't want to recieve the IFR clearance...just call clearance delivery, preferably while you are on the ground, and ask them if they have your IFR on file....if they reply in the affirmative, simply ask them to change it to VFR so you can request flight following along the same route.
IF you go the IFR route and cancel in the air....one of two things will happen. The controller may remove your flight plan ENTIRELY from the system or they may amend your flight plan to VFR which will afford you flight following.
My break is over....more answers later.
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11-12-2010, 11:24 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,747
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Gil....the controller doesn't care how complex your flight plan is...vfr nor ifr...but he does not want to have to type any of that information into a computer. Brantel is trying to get his VFR plan into the ATC computer so he will be afforded flight following for his entire trip. He will be treated much like an IFR aircraft in that he will get handoffs from one controller to the next AUTOMATICALLY (for ease in explaination).
IFLY....I think you handled it fairly well. I can't answer if the controller heard you or not. I do know that bravo controllers will sometimes ignore VFR aircraft because he is busy with IFRs....and he can do this because you are not permitted to enter without his permission. So in the case of him ignoring you....I think it might be helpful to explain on initial attempt to contact him, that you are in fact landing at his airport and he will have to deal with you sooner or later.
If it truly is a radio problem of some sort then sometimes higher altitudes help. I think you did the right thing by remaining outside and calling several times. The only suggestion I have on that is don't go circling in an area that conflicts with other traffic, like the final or other arrival or departure fix.
Finally, I think sometimes the PILOT can hear things perfect but the controller has to listen to open cockpits, loud engine noise in the backround, etc. Many times I blame things on headsets.
"Marking" the tape is sort of an old school phrase. All ATC frequencies are recorded so that data could be used to troubleshoot issues in the future. We used to use actual magnetic tapes and if we needed to find a particular piece of audio recording we would stick a piece of paper in the completed reel to "mark" the general area of audio we were looking for. Most of the country, if not all, has gone digital though and tapes are no longer used but the phrase remains.
However, I don't ever suggest you request a controller to "mark" the tape....chances are you might have done something wrong and the tapes will incriminate you. Once you take things to that level...there is no turning back. Violations WILL occur to any guilty party. If you DO want to discuss a particular incident, just note the time and make a call to the approach control. They will research any issue you may have and clear things up. If it is discovered that the controller made a mistake there is a pretty good chance he will recieve additional training to correct further issue. If it is discovered that the pilot was in error....the approach control may be required to report the incident at that time and you may get a call from FSDO.
Last edited by tkatc : 11-12-2010 at 11:28 AM.
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11-12-2010, 11:50 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Actually, what...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkatc
Gil....the controller doesn't care how complex your flight plan is...vfr nor ifr...but he does not want to have to type any of that information into a computer. Brantel is trying to get his VFR plan into the ATC computer so he will be afforded flight following for his entire trip. .......
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...I was trying to say (not very well...  ...) was -
"Does the controller even care about your VFR planned track, complex or not?"
I guess he wants to know your destination so he knows when you are done, but does he really care how you got there if it was legal VFR?
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
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11-12-2010, 12:38 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Caldwell ID
Posts: 253
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VFR flight following track
Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila
...I was trying to say (not very well...  ...) was -
"Does the controller even care about your VFR planned track, complex or not?"
I guess he wants to know your destination so he knows when you are done, but does he really care how you got there if it was legal VFR?
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Gil,
I've received vectors while on flight following that I haven't requested and I know my experience isn't unique. I'm not talking about avoidance maneuvers to a specific aircraft, but what has been explained to me as vectors out of the general approach or departure traffic flow. I've taken that to mean, yes, controllers care about where we are, probably not most the time, but sometimes.
best
__________________
Stan
1990 RV-3 (now apart, upgrades in the works)
1959 C172 O-360
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11-12-2010, 01:19 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,747
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Gil...overall you are right...if you are in a legal VFR area then we don't care. We do sometimes give vectors to keep you out of undesireable areas as Nomocon stated. We generally try not to vector a VFR off his course but sometimes it is just a more effecient way of servicing ALL of our customers.
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11-21-2010, 11:07 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: CA
Posts: 14
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I'll ask it anyways...
TK...I'm a newly minted IR pilot, who understands just enough to get where I'm going safely. However, every time I file an IFR flight plan, I'm nervous I'm gonna get thrown something I've never seen/heard before. My question is this: When I file a route, what are the chances of getting my requested route? I've only filed to very easy destinations so far, and on one of those trips the controller told me it would be to difficult to get me into Kxxx (for a touch and go) as there are three different freq's I have to switch to depending on which direction I'd come in from. This was after I was "cleared as filed" on the phone w/clearance delivery. It wasn't that big of a deal, but I like to have as much planned out as possible.
I'm considering an IFR trip to the SF Bay area, and I just don't want to get myself in over my head w/any "surprise" deviations.
__________________
I-wish-I-had-an-RV-project guy
ASEL/IR
KEDU home field
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11-22-2010, 09:39 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,747
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Chris....I think DUATS and similar programs have the standard routes listed for various airports. If your destination is not listed, then use the route to the closest larger airport and substitute your airport for the larger one. This will give you a very good idea about what you can expect.
I am not exactly sure what you meant when you said the controller couldn't get you into Kxxx for a touch and go. But it sounds as though you filed a route which included a touch and go to an airport along the way. That is similar to a "round robin" which starts and ends at the same airport with various points/airports along the way. Controllers typically HATE that type of clearance and would prefer you file a flight plan for each individual leg. IE. file a plan from A to B, then another for B to C, and then another from C to D. Hope this is understandable.
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11-22-2010, 10:37 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bellevue, NE
Posts: 686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkatc
standard routes listed for various airports. If your destination is not listed, then use the route to the closest larger airport and substitute your airport for the larger one. This will give you a very good idea about what you can expect.
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Just found this site on FAA.gov http://www.fly.faa.gov/rmt/nfdc_pref...s_database.jsp
It's actually pretty user friendly and quick to query the database. One way to pull a fair amount of info without 'hunting and pecking' for specific airports is to search by ARTCC. Here are the ARTCC codes, just use the last 3 on the web site though.
KZAB Albuquerque,NM
PAZA Anchorage,AK.
KZTL Atlanta,GA
KZBW Boston,MA
KZAU Chicago,IL
KZOB Cleveland,OH
KZDV Denver,CO
KZFW Fort Worth,TX
PGZU Guam CERAP
PHZH Honolulu,HI
KZHU Houston,TX
KZID Indianapolis,IN
KZJX Jacksonville,FL
KZKC Kansas City,KS
KZLA Los Angeles,CA
KZME Memphis,TN
KZMA Miami,FL
KZMP Minneapolis,MN
KZNY New York,NY
KZOA Oakland,CA
KZAK Oakland OCA/FIR
KZLC Salt Lake City,UT
TJZS San Juan,PR
KZSE Seattle,WA
KZDC Washington,DC
Also, here's a picture of the center's airspace. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...8e/Tfrmap.jpeg
Hope this helps.
-Jim
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