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10-26-2010, 08:11 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 863
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EAA Experimenter goes deep into E-LSA vs E-AB
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10-26-2010, 10:25 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chesterfield, Missouri
Posts: 4,514
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RV-12 - EAB 51% FAA Approved
I learned today from Van's that the RV-12 has been FAA EAB 51% approved as of a couple weeks ago. It should be on the list soon.
Interesting development and prompts a question or two for current 12 builders.
If one were to go the EAB route, how much of challenge would it be to go with a Lycoming 0235? I wonder if it would fit under the Rotax cowl? Obviously, the mount would be different as would the fuel and electric systems.
I pose these questions being a confirmed sceptic about the complexity of liquid cooling, PSRU's and dual carburetors. That is not to say the Rotax is unacceptable, its just a perception I have that with this matter, KISS suits me best.
As of this moment after surveying many LSA offerings, the 12 is the only airplane that really appeals to me. And that goes back to Van's engineering and quality kits. There is nothing on the market better or as well tested.
And it also seems reasonable to believe the RV-12 would be a success with a light weight Lycoming 0235 as it is with the Rotax 912.
Anyway, different strokes for different folks. I am deliberately stirring this pot a bit as I think about LSA most every day.
__________________
RV-12 Build Helper
RV-7A...Sold #70374
The RV-8...Sold #83261
I'm in, dues paid 2019 This place is worth it!
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10-26-2010, 10:40 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: La Feria Texas
Posts: 3,822
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What bothers me about your idea is that the 0235 seems to weigh about 110 lbs more than the Rotax. So, are you going to leave 110 lbs of fuel behind, or 110 lbs of passenger? The LSA has to constantly fight the 1320 lb gross and that cannot be changed.
To me the RV12 is about the only LSA that gives a decently strong plane and still gives a decent payload. Why mess that up?
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10-26-2010, 10:56 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David-aviator
If one were to go the EAB route, how much of challenge would it be to go with a Lycoming 0235? I wonder if it would fit under the Rotax cowl? Obviously, the mount would be different as would the fuel and electric systems.
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It was already done by at least one RV-12 builder who did do enough advanced planning and found it severely nose heavy when readying for first flight. I believe he ended up removing it and purchasing a Rotax power plant kit from Van's (and redoing all of the engine installation work a second time).
I do not know whether it was a light weight version of the O-235. Even if it was, my understanding is the installed weight would still be on the order of 75 lbs heavier than the Rotax installation. That is a 10% (or more depending on optional equipment) increase in empty weight...that should not be taken lightly, even if you can find a way to get the empty C.G. positioned properly.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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10-26-2010, 01:52 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Beautiful NJ Shore
Posts: 409
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The Panel of YOUR Choice
For a couple of guys I know that have been 'sitting on the fence', their biggest complaint was that you had to buy 'Vans Panel', no options. EAB would also remove speed restrictions if flown by a PPL. Personally, I wouldn't fool around with the Gross Weight limit.
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Greg Piney
RV-8 2547
Empennage Done!
Beginning Fuselage Final Assembly!
(Tub finished, on to Landing Gear).
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10-26-2010, 02:35 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chesterfield, Missouri
Posts: 4,514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002
It was already done by at least one RV-12 builder who did do enough advanced planning and found it severely nose heavy when readying for first flight. I believe he ended up removing it and purchasing a Rotax power plant kit from Van's (and redoing all of the engine installation work a second time).
I do not know whether it was a light weight version of the O-235. Even if it was, my understanding is the installed weight would still be on the order of 75 lbs heavier than the Rotax installation. That is a 10% (or more depending on optional equipment) increase in empty weight...that should not be taken lightly, even if you can find a way to get the empty C.G. positioned properly.
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Scott,
There is quite a weight difference from Rotax to Lycoming, I did not realize how much it is.
The 0233 dry weight is 213 lbs, the 912 with options is 159.2 lbs. Anyway it is cut, the Lycoming will come in 100 pounds heavier and all of it up front. That is not good.
__________________
RV-12 Build Helper
RV-7A...Sold #70374
The RV-8...Sold #83261
I'm in, dues paid 2019 This place is worth it!
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10-26-2010, 03:19 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Chino, CA
Posts: 738
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O-200
What does the O-200 weigh?
__________________
Tom Prokop
Chino, CA
RV-8A,180/CS/Carb, AFS 4500 EFIS/EMS
RV-6, sold, 820 hrs of fun.
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10-26-2010, 03:23 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ashland, OR
Posts: 2,573
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weight including radiator, coolant, etc
What happens to the weight comparison when you include the radiator and coolant? Does it still have an oil cooler, or does that only stack on the o-235 side?
When you do the weight comparison, be sure to include the systems weights. Sounds like Scott's datapoint adresses that though....
I wish the rotax was EFI.
__________________
Steve Smith
Aeronautical Engineer
RV-8 N825RV
IO-360 A1A
WW 200RV
"The Magic Carpet"
Hobbs 625
LS6-15/18W sailplane SOLD
bought my old LS6-A back!! 
VAF donation Jan 2020
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10-26-2010, 03:59 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: La Feria Texas
Posts: 3,822
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I added in all the radiator etc, and came up with 110 lbs heavier for the 0235. One could go tto the 0233 and save a little weight too. I did not consider the prop, which would be heavier for the 0235 as well.
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10-26-2010, 06:18 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonFromTX
I added in all the radiator etc, and came up with 110 lbs heavier for the 0235. One could go tto the 0233 and save a little weight too. I did not consider the prop, which would be heavier for the 0235 as well.
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I believe Sensenich has a ground adjustable prop for the O-235 that is similar to the one used on the 912 Rotax but that would only cure that weight difference.
The weight of the bare bones 912 engine is only about 130 lbs (it is easily picked up by two people).
The all up installed weight is in the neighborhood of 158-160 lbs.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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