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  #21  
Old 10-24-2010, 04:40 PM
ufahmad ufahmad is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: romulus, mi
Posts: 1
Default flap motor

hey guys..im new to the site. im a student pilot..but i have a hard question. if my flap motor is burned out
where do i look to see if its even required?
am i allowed to fly with it inoperative (airworthy)?
what we have to do with this to make it operative?

thanks guys...these r questions my flight instructor asked me...ive searched everywhere and cant find the answers...if you could help i would greatly appreciate it
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  #22  
Old 10-24-2010, 04:54 PM
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Kahuna Kahuna is offline
 
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Location: Gold Hill, NC25
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Is this on an RV I hope?
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  #23  
Old 10-24-2010, 07:23 PM
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MCA MCA is offline
 
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BTW, the Vertical Power flap system includes dynamic braking (stops the motor instantly) and motor run-on protection.
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  #24  
Old 10-24-2010, 07:41 PM
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apkp777 apkp777 is offline
 
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Location: Schaumburg, IL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ufahmad View Post
hey guys..im new to the site. im a student pilot..but i have a hard question. if my flap motor is burned out
where do i look to see if its even required?
am i allowed to fly with it inoperative (airworthy)?
what we have to do with this to make it operative?

thanks guys...these r questions my flight instructor asked me...ive searched everywhere and cant find the answers...if you could help i would greatly appreciate it
Welcome to VAF.
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N524AP, RV 9 (tail wheel)

Last edited by apkp777 : 10-24-2010 at 07:46 PM.
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  #25  
Old 10-24-2010, 07:44 PM
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apkp777 apkp777 is offline
 
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Is your CFI testing your knowledge? What it allowable inoperative equipment? And whether or not you can fly without electric flaps? In that case, it's time to head to CFAR part 91!. You'll find your answer there.

I will give you a hint however (sorry I am a CFI so I have to play the same silly head game). Flight with inoperative equipment is allowed provided that it does not violate three factors:

1. Certification requirements (did the manufacturer receive certification with the equipment deemed required "R" or optional "O" or additional "A"). The "R's, "O"'s and "A"'s are found in the equipment list of certified aircraft. RV's have none.
2. Regulatory requirements (good ol Part 91) - Is the equipment listed as day VFR required, night, IFR, etc.
3. Operational requirements (how you're flying the plane) - Are you flying VFR, IFR, Short field etc

Additionally, a PIC must make the decision that the aircraft is safe for flight, not withstanding any of the above factors.
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Last edited by apkp777 : 10-24-2010 at 08:09 PM.
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  #26  
Old 10-24-2010, 08:46 PM
Steve Hall Steve Hall is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, MA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apkp777 View Post
Is your CFI testing your knowledge? What it allowable inoperative equipment? And whether or not you can fly without electric flaps? In that case, it's time to head to CFAR part 91!. You'll find your answer there.

I will give you a hint however (sorry I am a CFI so I have to play the same silly head game). Flight with inoperative equipment is allowed provided that it does not violate three factors:

1. Certification requirements (did the manufacturer receive certification with the equipment deemed required "R" or optional "O" or additional "A"). The "R's, "O"'s and "A"'s are found in the equipment list of certified aircraft. RV's have none.
2. Regulatory requirements (good ol Part 91) - Is the equipment listed as day VFR required, night, IFR, etc.
3. Operational requirements (how you're flying the plane) - Are you flying VFR, IFR, Short field etc

Additionally, a PIC must make the decision that the aircraft is safe for flight, not withstanding any of the above factors.
Tony can correct my misstatements, but I think it is a little more complicated than he suggests. A quick look at a C172SP POH shows that flaps are not on the required equipment list, but neither are ailerons or elevators --- and they're not optional or additional either! But they do exist. So how should they be treated?

Of course, ailerons and elevator are required for safe flight, so the question is whether flaps are. The use of flaps is almost certainly called out in the emergency procedures, so whether or not you intend to use flaps, I think the FAA would deem that flaps are required for the aircraft to be airworthy, unless there are alternate procedures to use if they are inoperative.

Indeed, all Master Minimum Equipment Lists contain a standard preamble with the statement, "The FAA approved MMEL includes those items of equipment related to airworthiness and operating regulations and other items of equipment which the Administrator finds may be inoperative and yet maintain an acceptable level of safety by appropriate conditions and limitations; it does not contain obviously required items such as wings, flaps, and rudders."

I appreciate Tony not trying to give anything away here, but the FARs regarding minimum required equipment are notoriously confusing, and I think it's worth answering directly.

There is a good web page on the topic of operating with failed equipment here.

As an aside, if the flap motor failed in flight, you would be required to report the incident to the NTSB "by the most expeditious means available", since flaps are part of the flight control system. (49 CFR 830.5)
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  #27  
Old 10-24-2010, 09:17 PM
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apkp777 apkp777 is offline
 
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It's true that the subject of inoperative equipment and MEL's is a confusing part of the FAR's. However, generally speaking MEL's don't apply to most light GA aircraft and certainly not RV's. Still, your instructor is wanting you do do some research and come to some understanding of the subject. I doubt most pilots could tell you why or why not it would be legal to take off without flaps. Probably some FAA inspectors couldn't either. But what you need to know is that there is a matrix (not the movie) that you need to flow through to determine if a item is required.

For example a Vaccum Pump fails on a small plane used for day vfr.

1. is it required by type certificate? No, it's an additional piece of equipment in most cases.
2. Is it required by regulation? No, FAR 91.205 doesn't mention it.
3. Is it required by operation? No, flying VFR.

So, is it safe to fly without it? Well here's the problem. First, do you know WHY it failed. Was there a leak in the line, a vane failure or a gear failure that is in the process of destroying your engine.

Here's where the PIC must make a PIC decision. Do you really want to fly with ?'s about the mechanical soundness of your plane? Did I mention were flying day vfr or should I say, for fun.
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