Don't Dump those flaps!!

[N941WR]

Thanks for posting your experience. Ergonomic panel design, including switch placement, is something many homebuilders do not take into account.

Originally Posted by Dave Cole

Take the flap switch off of the stick, and put it next to the throttle where you'll need it to bleed off flaps during a go-around. Then you'll never again confuse it with the trim switch on the stick.

In my plane, you can push the throttle and mixture full forward while pushing in the carb heat and toggling up the flaps without moving your hand. Click on the picture below to see what I'm talking about.

[Bullseye]

Originally Posted by N941WR

Ergonomic panel design, including switch placement, is something many homebuilders do not take into account.

Great point Bill.

I spend a lot of time at work on Human Factors work for a Part 23 advanced light jet certification program. Among many other regulations, the FAA has been spending a lot of time and effort on these HF type regulations, which are sprinkled throughout the certification regulations for part 23 and part 25 airplanes. A regulation that comes to mind immediately is 23.777 (specifically 23.777(a)(b) and also 23.777(f)(1)(2)(g)).

23.777(a) Each cockpit control must be located and (except where its function is obvious) identified to provide convenient operation and to prevent confusion and inadvertent operation.

23.777(b) The controls must be located and arranged so that the pilot, when seated, has full and unrestricted movement of each control without interference from either his clothing or the cockpit structure.

23.777(f) Wing flap and auxiliary lift device controls must be located--
(1) Centrally, or to the right of the pedestal or powerplant throttle control centerline; and
(2) Far enough away from the landing gear control to avoid confusion.

23.777(g) The landing gear control must be located to the left of the throttle centerline or pedestal centerline.

(I could mention dozens of other part 23 and part 25 certification regulations about specific systems, but they all have the same idea. 23.671(b), 23.677(a), 23.771(a), 23.777(h), 23.1367(c)(d).)

It's actually very interesting stuff.

[tomcostanza]

I had my Infinity grip configured with the toggle switch momentary in both directions. I'll need to hold the switch in the flaps-up position.

[clam]

Originally Posted by Toobuilder

While I'm not a huge fan of a stick festooned with switchgear, I am adding the starter switch to the stick to meet some needs of the owner. However, its operation will be on a timer so that it can?t be accidentally engaged.

some prefer a switchguarded "starter arm" switch in conjunction with the stick push-to-start. timers can introduce some other failures. smart to protect the starter in either case though.

[clam]

Originally Posted by Birkelbach

I did the same thing once. Don't worry about it. After a hundred hours or so your brain figures out what is where and this type of thing is less of an issue.

I thought the trim was going nuts. I have an indicator on my annunciator panel that tells me when the flap motor is running. When I saw that I realized what had happened, put the flaps back in and landed. It wasn't a big deal.

i don't mean any disrespect here... but your "brain" needs to have everything "figured out" prior to EVERY flight, or you ought not to go flying that day. please remember, friends, that while our little airplanes may just be the coolest gig in town, they will kill you without a second "thought". let's just be prepared and put our brains 5 minutes ahead of where we intend to put our airplane. there are no "warm-up" periods (maybe some "comfort time" in those dark nights behind the boat).
enjoy and be safe.

[RVbySDI]

Originally Posted by Ironflight

1) You might consider simplifying your pattern operations. I go straight to landing flaps abeam the numbers on downwind, then just fly the airplane. Sure, on big airplanes, you add flaps ten degrees at a time at various points in the approach, but these really aren't big airplanes. Less monkeying with the configuration on base and final lets you just fly the airplane. Yes, there are exceptions to this rule, but they are uncommon.

That is a good idea. With the few hours I have now I am still working on getting the plane slowed down on downwind so I am putting in progressive flaps due to the fact I am still too fast for full flaps at the downwind/base turn. I have been able to put in partial flaps at that point but not full flaps. Getting the speed down on downwind without using any of the flaps is going to take more practice.

Originally Posted by Ironflight

2) I really like having the "Momentary down, lock up" type of switch for the flaps, but then, I have a limit switch in the circuit to shut the motor off when they are full up - I wouldn't wire it any other way if I had a choice. A limit switch is pretty easy to add, and the circuit is very simple. On a go-around, you put the flap switch up and forget it - again, an operationally simple scenario that lets you concentrate on flying.

Yes, I also like my setup with the lock up, except for the lack of a limit switch. Can you give me any details on where in the circuit the limit switch would be installed? A schematic for the circuit that includes a limit switch would be great. Can you, or anyone else reading, give me some information on what switch I should use and where would be a good place to purchase one? Thanks for the info.

[RV7Guy]

For some reason there is a trend toward the "fighter pilot" mentality. All the coolest stuff, every switch on the stick. The fact of the matter very few have the overall experience to have good CRM skills to deal with a critical situation. I remember seeing a survey that the most RV pilots are quite low on the flight time.

Throw in the fact that the vast majority fly less that 100 hours a year and you've got a path to problems when fit hits the shan!!!

There is really no need for the starter on the stick, definitely no reason to have the flaps on the stick (especially the kind that will take them all the way up) and anything else but trim, PTT and possibly an auto pilot disconnect or comm flip/flop.

"Never have switch that can cause a crash."

Sorry to be blunt, but keep it simple. I know RV's are Experimental and we can do what we want but there is no need to build unnecessary complexity into the system. There are no awards for having extra stuff on the stick and less on the panel.

[Birkelbach]

Originally Posted by clam

i don't mean any disrespect here... but your "brain" needs to have everything "figured out" prior to EVERY flight, or you ought not to go flying that day.

Obviously I wasn't saying that you shouldn't KNOW where the switch is on the airplane. All I'm trying to say is that at some point your "instincts" get trained and you don't have to think about it as much.

For example. If you asked me right now what all the buttons are on my stick grip I'd have to really think about it. I KNOW what they are and could answer the question, but it's different if I'm in the airplane. If I need to disconnect the AP while I'm flying I don't have to "think" about which button it is, I just press it. I did when I first started flying it, I still KNOW where it is but after 200 hours of flying it I don't have to think about it anymore. The same goes for all the other switches on the stick.

There is only one way to achieve this and that is with time and experience.

If you are afraid of activating the flaps instead of trim then put the switch elsewhere. I'm just saying that when it happened to me it wasn't that big of a deal and now that my "instincts" are trained I think it is much less likely to happen at all.

[Rick6a]

Originally Posted by tomcostanza

I had my Infinity grip configured with the toggle switch momentary in both directions. I'll need to hold the switch in the flaps-up position.

I rigged the flap toggle on the Infinity grip the same way as Tom...that is...momentary and I wouldn't have it any other way. Because the flap switch is momentary, the possible flap settings are infinite between 0? and 40?. Typically, when slowing down from say 110-115 MPH I find it handy to "tickle" the flap switch to deploy 3? to 5? or so of flaps. That simple step is all it takes to enhance the decelerating process and 100 MPH Vfe is quickly reached. One the other hand, with the manual system of RV flap deployment, you have to dump 10? of flap right out of the gate and I find that.....well, inefficient because a significant pitch trim setting may be required to unload the joystick. Even my old C-150 had a momentary flap toggle. Still, although mounted on the instrument panel, I found its operation less than ergomomic and knew before I even decided to build an airplane that a stick grip mounted flap switch would be personally preferable.

I have flown a few different planes with manual flaps including an RV-4 and why anyone prefers manual over electric flap deployment is beyond me. That flap handle takes up a lot of space, especially on the side by side models unless you seek to cop a cheap feel from your passenger.

Those builders who dislike electric flaps are limiting themselves to RV models that sport manual flaps. For instance, the RV-8 is fitted with electric flaps only, manual is not even an option. Van's has no problem with electric flaps and that decision speaks volumes about design philosophy and reflected in its own literature:

Electric Flaps

Models: RV-4, 6/6A; Standard on QuickBuild;
Standard on RV-7/7A, 8/8A, 9/9A, 10
This option eliminates the manual flap handle between the seats (RV-6/6A) or alongside the passenger?s left leg (RV-4). More convenient and adds to useable room. Driven by a small industrial motor/gear unit, the flaps extend/retract in about 8 seconds. All factory prototypes have been converted to electric flaps. Order with the Fuselage Kit.

Now, I have to ask .....why would anybody take the time and added expense to convert a factory fleet of RV's over to electric if manual flaps are so wonderful?

[DanH]

Count me with those thinking a flap switch near a trim switch is really dumb design, much like adjacent flap and gear switches, or adjacent mag and fuel pump switches. And maybe we're not treating a flap switch seriously enough. Unintended operation can be dangerous in more ways than an unplanned sink rate. Consider what might happen if you accidentally deploy at 170 knots and collapse one of the pushrods.

Food for thought......might some builders buy a cool grip, then spend hours thinking up questionable uses for all the buttons?