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  #11  
Old 08-26-2010, 06:37 AM
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rbibb rbibb is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post

Once again, all this stuff is free, as it is from most of the experimental EFIS companies - how can you beat that!
This is not a slam on anyone but an observation. I work in the IT business and one thing that I wonder about is the viability of providing software updates "for free" like forever. I'm sure we all know this stuff isn't "free" as there are real costs associated with producing it. There may not be a price charged to provide it but I'm sure the guys doing the coding are cashing a paycheck, there is always the light bill to pay, etc.

A big source of ongoing revenue for manufacturers of hardware products with embedded software is the "software maintenance fees" usually associated with providing bug fixes and new features. Obviously as the installed base grows the real cost per user to provide the release is less as the costs can be amortized across the installed base while the variable costs are minor given the low cost to distribute the code. While the fees some manufactures charge seem a bit over the top not charging anything seems a questionable business practice.

Of course as consumers we enjoy "free" - but how free is it really if the viability of the provider becomes in doubt? Ask any Blue Mountain user if you have any doubts.

I'm not questioning the viability of any particular manufacturer but when I sink tens of thousands of dollars in my avionics for my -10 I do plan to perform what level of due diligence I can into the long-term sustainability of the provider of the gee-whiz boxes. The engineering aspects of delivering these systems is fairly well understood science and not likely to trip up any of the current crop of providers. The business aspects of navigating a challenging global economy will likely prove more difficult and determine the ultimate winners in the end IMHO.
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Last edited by rbibb : 08-26-2010 at 07:54 AM.
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  #12  
Old 08-26-2010, 08:18 AM
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RVbySDI RVbySDI is offline
 
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Location: Tuttle, Oklahoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbibb View Post
This is not a slam on anyone but an observation. I work in the IT business and one thing that I wonder about is the viability of providing software updates "for free" like forever. I'm sure we all know this stuff isn't "free" as there are real costs associated with producing it. There may not be a price charged to provide it but I'm sure the guys doing the coding are cashing a paycheck, there is always the light bill to pay, etc.

A big source of ongoing revenue for manufacturers of hardware products with embedded software is the "software maintenance fees" usually associated with providing bug fixes and new features. Obviously as the installed base grows the real cost per user to provide the release is less as the costs can be amortized across the installed base while the variable costs are minor given the low cost to distribute the code. While the fees some manufactures charge seem a bit over the top not charging anything seems a questionable business practice.

Of course as consumers we enjoy "free" - but how free is it really if the viability of the provider becomes in doubt? Ask any Blue Mountain user if you have any doubts.

I'm not questioning the viability of any particular manufacturer but when I sink tens of thousands of dollars in my avionics for my -10 I do plan to perform what level of due diligence I can into the long-term sustainability of the provider of the gee-whiz boxes. The engineering aspects of delivering these systems is fairly well understood science and not likely to trip up any of the current crop of providers. The business aspects of navigating a challenging global economy will likely prove more difficult and determine the ultimate winners in the end IMHO.
If your idea of sustainability holds true for everything, then I have to ask how do you account for Microsoft sustaining its highly profitable business when it "gives away for free" all of those Windows updates. Or, for that matter, how in the world do any of those Linux developers survive giving away the entire "kitchen sink" for free?

Sustainability is not solely tied to monetary value. There are many many other ways to gain value. In fact, your notion that the only way a company can provide quality service is if they receive a high level of monetary compensation. In a way, this reminds me of the quote from the movie Wall Street when Gordon Gecko (Michael Douglas) exclaims: "Greed is good!"

I would question how many companies think in this same line when pricing their products/services.
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  #13  
Old 08-26-2010, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by RVbySDI View Post
If your idea of sustainability holds true for everything, then I have to ask how do you account for Microsoft sustaining its highly profitable business when it "gives away for free" all of those Windows updates.
Well I didn't intend to start an argument but I did specifically state hardware suppliers with embedded software. Comparisons to pure software are not as valid nor is Microsoft who has an industry unique positioning having their code embedded in every PC produced on the planet.

I stand my my statement as in every situation there is no free lunch. The costs are real and must be paid. All we are talking about is the mechanism to do so. If they aren't paid then the company will potentially fail. How they are paid is the question.
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  #14  
Old 08-26-2010, 10:10 AM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbibb View Post
I stand my my statement as in every situation there is no free lunch. The costs are real and must be paid. All we are talking about is the mechanism to do so. If they aren't paid then the company will potentially fail. How they are paid is the question.
I am not a software designer, economist, or business major, but my thought is that the new software is being developed to entice future customers to buy the product. It is being given to the old customers to promote customer loyalty. They HAVE to develop new software features to stay competitive, so those costs are there regardless of the old customer base if the company/product is to survive.

Fortunately for us, all of the major experimental EFIS companies are doing free upgrades (even Garmin) for software functions - so long as it doesn't require new hardware. Note that all of the companies (Dynon, AFS, GRT, Garmin, TT, MGL...) DO get more money from their old customers by selling a faster, fancier hardware set when the old stuff can't support the newer software. (Most of them also give you a generous trade-in allowance to do so!)

Telling your loyal customers that they have to pay for every little upgrade is going to be like Jeppeson forcing us to pay hundreds of dollars a year for database updates.....yet for some reason, those of us who fly IFR DO that.....

Paul
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  #15  
Old 08-27-2010, 08:47 AM
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Kahuna Kahuna is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
Lots of new stuff - the maps now show roads, population centers, railroads, etc.
I could not see any roads or other items in my moving map updates.
I tried a few different views and zooming around.

I also clicked my heels together 3 times. No joy.

I did notice a few changes.
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  #16  
Old 08-27-2010, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahuna View Post
I could not see any roads or other items in my moving map updates.
I tried a few different views and zooming around.

I also clicked my heels together 3 times. No joy.

I did notice a few changes.

you have to download those databases separate from the nav database.
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  #17  
Old 08-27-2010, 11:33 AM
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Jim Lewellyn Jim Lewellyn is offline
 
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Default New Software in Sport HS

I have a single screen Sport HS. I loaded the V7 software, V.34 AHRS, additional databases, and flew it today for a short time. All seemed to work just fine. I really didn't have time to play with all the new features (hopefully this weekend I will ). One thing that I did notice is that the GPS screens now load much faster when changing the range than they did in the previous version. Also, when making steep turns with the previous version, the GPS screen would get all jumbled up. It kind of seemed like it would paint one screen image over the previous image making it unreadable. This appears to be fixed in the new version as well.
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  #18  
Old 08-27-2010, 12:16 PM
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MSFT-1 MSFT-1 is offline
 
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Default First impressions on the new GRT software

I loaded the new update this morning and then flew a short flight. The update takes about fifteen minutes (the AHARS update takes the longest).

First you update the EFIS software
Then the AHARS software
Then the navigation database (if it is not already up to date)

As others noted you need to load several more databases (roads, water, railroads, populated areas) in order to see the new map details. In my case I do not have any extra interal storage on my Horizon I's so I will need to keep the USB sticks in the front of each Horizon in order to use the enhanced map features.

There are LOTS of details (too many if you ask me). The good news is that you can turn them off individually and set the range on which they will show (or not show). You can also choose which map views (North up, Track Up etc.) show map details. My sense is that if you are a VFR pilot that likes to identify things on the ground it will be fun, but otherwise all the details are just eye-candy.

I think I will keep bodies of water and populated areas turned on but leave the roads and railroads off.

I don't really like the new greenish background for the map views. It makes it more difficult to see the airspace boundries and other details. You can turn it off and keep the black background.

The enhanced airport database looks nice. It shows many more airports including private and restricted airports. Well done there.

I had previously had problems with my Horizon I's not agreeing with each other (roll and heading were both affected). I made many calls to GRT but never really 100% fixed the problem (steep turns would sometimes still cause the two displays to "split". The good news is that I tried everything I could to make them split this morning (lots of yanking and banking, uncoordinated turns etc.) and they never disagreed. I am cautiously hopeful that this new update fixes them.

Overall a very good update from GRT.
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  #19  
Old 08-27-2010, 02:05 PM
N459RC N459RC is offline
 
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I updated mine yesterday. I never used the gps on my GRT because
I didn't like black screen or the lack of information. After the update
it is everything I wanted in a gps. Thanks GRT!
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  #20  
Old 08-27-2010, 02:34 PM
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Rick_A Rick_A is offline
 
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I flew with the new EFIS software and AHRS V28 today. I also loaded the water and roads databases.

I agree with Bruce on the background screen color, it's much more difficult to see the airspace boundaries with the Color On. I turned the color off. Flying around the DFW area, one of the things I really like about the GRT is the great job is does displaying airspace boundaries.

I also liked the old Nav DB that does not have all the private airports better then the latest Nav DB. While I was flying, I changed the Moving Map setting for Small airports a number of times. For me, the problem is that if setting the Small airport range low (10 ) also turns offs small public airports.

For example, flying from 52F to Decataur (KLUD), Bridgeport (KXBR) doesn't show up if the Map range is 35 and Small airport setting is 20. If the Small airport range is raised enough to see XBR, the clutter factor with all the private airport is just too much.

GRT really needs to add another filter setting for those of us that don't want to see all the private airports.
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