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  #11  
Old 11-16-2009, 04:36 PM
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N8RV N8RV is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Elkhart, Indiana
Posts: 1,186
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
Phase I is for flight testing.
Phase II is for all operations after phase I is completed and properly documented in the aircraft maintenance records.
There is no Phase III.
Well, that's kinda what I thought. But why give Phase II a name at all then? I understand Phase I being the flight test phase. Seems kind of silly to even have a name for Phase II if it's just regular ol' flyin'.

Maybe they should change it to "FREEDOM" ...

Thanks, guys. I knew SOMEBODY here would have an answer.
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  #12  
Old 11-16-2009, 04:43 PM
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Mel Mel is online now
 
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Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
Default Bacause...

Being an experimental aircraft, you are always within an experiment!
No matter how much you fly that aircraft, it will never be a "Standard" certificated aircraft.
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USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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  #13  
Old 11-16-2009, 04:47 PM
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flyboy1963 flyboy1963 is offline
 
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Location: Lake Country, B.C. Canada
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Default Phase set to 'stun'?

Just this morn I was wondering, how many of us out there bought a flying RV, and never really went thru 'Phase I', which I think is an issue, if not a hazard!
Now of course I did 10 + hours with an instructor as my license had lapsed, but what should All new owners go thru to become familiar with their new aircraft? I probably didn't cover half the things in Phase one.

....and what if the first guy was a bit liberal, or just not aware of how to properly do the testing, and all the numbers in the POH are suspect?

I'd appreciate some Canadians piping up here if the rules are different!

thx all!
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RV-9a - SOLD!....
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  #14  
Old 08-19-2010, 02:46 PM
Waterskier Waterskier is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 4
Default Operation of Expermental Aircraft over populated area?

Some one told me that there is a FAR that prohibits opperation of expermental aircraft over populated areas.... True? If it is, seems like it is not enforced!

Thanks,
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  #15  
Old 08-19-2010, 06:42 PM
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Greg Arehart Greg Arehart is offline
 
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Certainly not true once you're out of Phase I.

greg
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  #16  
Old 08-19-2010, 08:31 PM
MeGiron MeGiron is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 81
Lightbulb Limitations unraveled

FAA Order 8130.2(), Currently 8130.2F, is used as guidance for the inspector/DAR in issuance of the Special Airworthiness Certificate for an experiment amateur built aircraft. As part of the issuance of that certificate, the inspector/DAR will issue operating limitations. These are issued verbatim from the order. Currently the language pertaining to your question is this:

START ORDER 8130.2F LANGUAGE
(6) This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely populated areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground.

NOTE: This limitation is applicable to the aircraft after it has satisfactorily completed all requirements for phase I flight testing, has the appropriate endorsement in the aircraft logbook and maintenance records, and is operating in phase II.

STOP ORDER 8130.2F LANGUAGE

Take note of the "NOTE", which says it IS APPLICABLE FOR AIRCRAFT IN PHASE II.

So, yes, it CERTAINLY DOES apply once you are out of phase I. In fact, it ONLY applies to aircraft out of phase I. There's another limitation to cover Phase I.

START ORDER 8130.2F LANGUAGE
(5) Except for takeoffs and landings, this aircraft may not be operated over densely populated areas or in congested airways.

NOTE: This limitation is applicable for phases I and II and should be issued
in accordance with paragraphs 135b(1) and (2) of this order.
STOP ORDER 8130.2F LANGUAGE

HERE'S THE IMPORTANT PART:
*Every experimental aircraft issued an Airworthiness certificate using this order (and this order's been around for a good long time) will have Operating Limitations specific to their aircraft, and that language is taken directly from the order...although more limitations can be added by the issuing inspector/DAR.
*If the order is revised, your limitations ARE NOT. However,You can have them revised, or be requested to have them re-issued, which will mean your operating limitations will likely be reissued under the latest revision's language.
*There has been a lot of change from revision to revision in the language and content of the order as it pertains to Operating Limitations. So, your limitations may be completely different than your neighbors, based on the revision of the order at the time of issuance.

Clear as mud? Here's the link for FAA Order 8130.2F
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/8b6b70e0dcb91cf58625765900790f72/$FILE/8130.2F%20chg%204.pdf
Look at Section 9 (starts on Page 149 (page # printed on the paper, not numbered by acrobat). Operating Limitations start on Page 164)
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  #17  
Old 08-19-2010, 08:40 PM
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Geico266 Geico266 is offline
 
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Location: Huskerland, USA
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Default

Even ATC could care less about populated area restruictions.
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  #18  
Old 08-19-2010, 08:57 PM
MeGiron MeGiron is offline
 
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Location: Washington, DC
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Default

Probably true, but ATC's not the one accepting the clearance, or the longshot potential of a violation.
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  #19  
Old 08-19-2010, 10:36 PM
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az_gila az_gila is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
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Smile And there is a FAR to back it up...

...of course...

Sec. 91.319

Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate--
(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that--
(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features.
(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.
.....
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Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
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  #20  
Old 08-19-2010, 11:29 PM
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John Clark John Clark is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 1,324
Default Otherwise authorized...

Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
...of course...

Sec. 91.319

Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate--
(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that--
(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features.
(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.
.....
The last item in the PhaseII section of my Operations Limitations says:

"This aircraft may be operated over densely populated areas and in congested airways"

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
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