Midair at Fisk last Wednesday... - Page 2

DeltaRomeo · #11 08-07-2010, 09:03 AM

Quote:

snip...I might have to placard my airplane limiting speed below 95 knots to 5 minutes or less with OAT above 70 degrees...snip

Danny King's mixture cable melted and froze in position after flying the low approach two years ago (200hp fuel injected RV-8) after about 15 minutes of 90kts somewhere around Fisk. Spent the first day of OSH repairing it.

We flew the high approach this year and *think* we didn't upset anyone - possibly because when we arrived we pretty much had the pattern to ourselves.

My .02 (as Stein says)

rocketbob · #12 08-07-2010, 11:05 AM

We were arriving at Fisk right about the time on Tues. evening when the airport closed because of the Jack Roush crash. Fortunately we were monitoring Fisk from 90nm out and could hear things piling up there, so we diverted to Fondulac. To be honest I was quite amazed with amount of chatter on the radio which showed the utter unpreparedness of some of these guys flying into Oshkosh. One example of a few conversations I heard was the controllers suggested that everyone divert to one of the outlying airports, and one guy asked which direction Fondulac was and what the frequency there was. Didn't have a clue how to get there.

As Oshkosh has evolved I really do believe they need to put some thought into revising the arrivals. All it takes is one guy in a J-3 who can't maintain 70 kts let alone 90 kts. to cause a logjam behind them, and that in itself is a big safety issue.

sprucemoose · #13 08-07-2010, 11:23 AM

The high pattern/ low pattern issue is one that comes up often. On one hand, the Notam clearly spells out that the high pattern is for those airplanes who cannot safely maintain 90 kts, not for those who don't feel like it. Others have posted on this thread that they've flown the high pattern in an RV and gotten away with it. I've never flown the high pattern myself, but I have heard pilots being chastised and told to get down to the low pattern. You might get away with it, but you need to be prepared to fly the low pattern.

Another consideration- in the high pattern, at some point you are going to have to go down and slow down to get down to the 1800 foot pattern. In a low wing airplane like an RV, this is a perfect setup to exactly the type of midair that started this thread.

Steve · #14 08-07-2010, 06:02 PM

In the interest of safety, the EAA should create a putt-putt pattern for the Cubs, Champs, Light Sport, etc for those aircraft struggling to to make 90 kts.

Greg Reese · #15 08-07-2010, 08:21 PM

If you could reasonably exceed an ops limit (oil Temp) by flying the low pattern, you should fly the high pattern. I did this year(2ship of RV8s) ATC didnt say a thing.

Frank Smidler · #16 08-07-2010, 09:39 PM

Last year our flight of three had two planes fly over us in the high pattern, a Bonanza and a Piper. They had to descend to 1800 just ahead of us and we had to follow them in to 27. Needless to say, they must not have read the NOTAM as the lead Bonanza went way north of the gravel pit and way out over the lake, which we had to follow. I still would like to ask someone at the FAA if I should have followed the correct pattern when they deviated.

If your in an RV in the high pattern you just add to the 2300 volume which will have to drop into the low pattern eventually. RV's flying the high pattern may explain why the Fisk controllers twice this year (I left and returned) directed me to descend to 1800 after passing them even though I was at 1800 doing 90 kts.

I also witnessed pilots arriving who did not read the NOTAM this year. When we arrived on Thursday after the air show at least 3 aircrafts ahead of us radioed FISK to ask for arrival frequencies (in the NOTAM) or other info.

rv8ch · #17 08-08-2010, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

In the interest of safety, the EAA should create a putt-putt pattern for the Cubs, Champs, Light Sport, etc for those aircraft struggling to to make 90 kts.

Great idea, Steve! I have not studied the current situation, so I have no idea if it is workable, but it sounds good.

Haven't yet flown into KOSH during the show, but I sure hope to one day. As it stands, I would plan to be an "early bird" - it's really quiet in the morning and I suspect a lot safer.

Ironflight · #18 08-08-2010, 05:16 AM

I agree - I hope that someday they can put in a slow-speed pattern for the planes that can't even get to 90 knots at full power in a dive (I used to own some of those!). And Mickey, you're right about finding slow times to go in - I never drive at rush hour if I can avoid it - why hit the peak at Oshkosh? Smart planning can make life simpler....

You can rationalize all sorts of reasons to use the "high road", but the comments to the NOTAM in the ATC section of the OSH web site are pretty clear on what "Aircraft who cannot maintain 90 knots" means. Sure, the NOTAM text itself is regulatory, not the comments, so they are not going to bust anyone - but as has been pointed out, they DO have to reintegrate the two streams after FISK, so you're just making the controller's task tougher, which decreases the safety margin for everyone. And as also been pointed out, there are enough yahoos who don't even know about the NOTAM already doing that for all of us....

I guess we can put the debate on hold for another year now....

Paul

Lycosaurus · #19 08-08-2010, 06:12 PM

This was our first time flying to Oshkosh flying in our RV-9A. Made it past Ripon and we were well on our way over the railroad tracks to Fisk. Controllers informed any additional traffic who had not yet passed Ripon to do the holding pattern over Green lake. We were doing about 80 to 90kts initially over the railroad tracks following the plane in front of us. Then some other plane comes in from the side and cuts in front of us. I saw similar things happening ahead of the other planes as well. Result? We had to slow down as the line got longer and had to maintain our spacing. The line hit almost 50kts at one time.... not a pleasant feeling.

Some pilots are so eager to make it to Oshkosh that they are willing to jump in front of the line (instead of doing a hold pattern at Green lake) and in so doing potentially putting other people at risk. This is where I wish that there would be more ground spotters with binoculars that could identify offenders, with maybe a subsequent punishment of 10 lashings with a wet noodle after landing on the blue dot at KOSH :-)

I have not read the details of the accident, but was it really an upper/lower route conflict issue, or was one plane cutting off the other at the 1800 ft. route?

From my observation/experience at Oshkosh, it is not the limited performance of the airplanes that are the issue for maintaining 90 kts, but rather the actions of a few pilots behind the stick/yoke. If more people were to take the 2300 ft route I believe the same issues would be observed there as well.

Kyle Boatright · #20 08-08-2010, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lycosaurus

... We had to slow down as the line got longer and had to maintain our spacing. The line hit almost 50kts at one time.... not a pleasant feeling...

The time to exit the line of airplanes in the arrival procedure is when you start feeling uncomfortable.

My personal minimums are that I won't accept crowded spacing with slow speeds. Also, I will not join a holding procedure for Osh or SnF. Too dangerous, IMO. Been there, done that, learned my lesson. Now, I target off-peak times and will land elsewhere or set-up my own holding procedure 20 miles away if there is a delay.

Being crowded into airspace with dissimilar aircraft and pilots of differing abilities is no place for me.