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08-06-2010, 11:01 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Arlington, WA
Posts: 799
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Alpha Male alert!!!
Hi Gil,
I guess I've never noticed the traffic diagram Fig 4-3-2 in the AIM. At my uncontrolled airport, I often hear pilots (including myself) reporting a "downwind departure to the south", or "departing crosswind to the west", or some other similar call. Seems to me to be OK, but perhaps I've been doing it wrong all this time.
I can see how a crosswind departure may put me directly in the path of the airplane inbound on the 45*, so maybe that's not such a good idea, but the downwind departure simply involves breaking out of the pattern after other traffic has merged into the pattern.
Maybe I'll have to change my method of departure...
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Scott "Grumpy" Stewart
RV-7 N957RV (First Flight on Dec 18, 2009 )
RV-14 N144P (Empennage complete, wings almost complete, fuselage almost complete)
#866 on the Van's RV-7 hobbs
#6563 on Van's generic hobbs
Arlington, WA
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08-06-2010, 11:20 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 114
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So true
Both types of pilots are dangerous, and difficult to talk to. When confronted, the Alpha Male will just get in your face and try to justify his actions - whether right or wrong. FAR/AIM won't change his opinion of his superior piloting skills or knowledge of the rules.
This is so true. I am trying to be careful because I actually know both pilots and my main concern is to keep it safe and to HAVE FUN. Right now there are two mad pilots. I am hoping that by putting this out there we, myself included, can do some arm-chair flying and be prepared with how we would like to respond. As I observed and watched the events unfold, I found myself angry and saying to myself don't do that... and what did you expect. I want to prepare myself for encounters that are bound to happen. We need to be responsible for our actions. I would like some of the new pilots to be aware that there will be moments that require cool heads to be safe.
These events are not representative of daily activity at this airport. That struck me as sort of funny, no this is an unusual case. I have seen some rude and some dangerous flying but those people tend to take themselves out of the gene pool or the neighborhood rather quickly.
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RV-7A - Flying
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08-07-2010, 12:01 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 114
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Thanks Az gila
6. If departing the traffic pattern, continue straight out, or exit with a 45 degree turn (to the left when in a left-hand traffic pattern; to the right when in a right-hand traffic pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway, after reaching pattern altitude.
Air traffic controllers et.al.
I have often wondered what your call is for an aircraft asking for a downwind departure. What do you expect? How do you instruct? What would be your preference? Should I request for a downwind departure from the pattern? Should I fly the "Standard" pattern and you vector other traffic around me as I make a turn outside the traffic pattern to the downwind?
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RV-7A - Flying
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08-07-2010, 12:08 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Seattle, wa
Posts: 679
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[quote=DakotaHawk;456001]There seems to be two trains of thought here.
Either a) there are several pilots with "Alpha Male/Type A" personality issues or b) there are several pilots who have an overly laid back attitude towards safety of flight.
[quote]
Both are usually short lived in aviation. They crash and burn then you don't have to deal with them.
Last edited by asav8tor : 08-07-2010 at 12:10 AM.
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08-07-2010, 05:48 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Avon, IN
Posts: 7
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Scenario 1: The pilot entering the pattern must give right of way to aircraft already in the pattern.
Scenario 2: The guy can land on whatever runway he wants. If he does a go around due to his own goof up. The guy waiting to TO on 15 may choose to sneak out so he doesnt have to wait for the other guy to do a entire pattern. Not saying its prudent but thats what I think may have been the case.
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08-07-2010, 06:55 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chesterfield, Missouri
Posts: 4,514
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Air Rage?
Road Rage must have spread to Air Rage.
Not surprised, there are weird, ego driven nuts everywhere and some have found their way into an airplane. I avoid them on the road and in the air like a bad disease by operating defensively. If they have to have it their way, have at it.
The only other way to deal with such insanity is with a gun and that will never do in our society - except in Texas, it's legal. 
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08-07-2010, 06:58 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 2,053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vupilot
Scenario 1: The pilot entering the pattern must give right of way to aircraft already in the pattern.
Scenario 2: The guy can land on whatever runway he wants. If he does a go around due to his own goof up. The guy waiting to TO on 15 may choose to sneak out so he doesnt have to wait for the other guy to do a entire pattern. Not saying its prudent but thats what I think may have been the case.
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I agree!
Still, it should be a lesson in patience and diligence. I try never to "judge" my fellow pilots. Given the opportunity I will gladly instruct them, but knowing my own limitations I am not immune to mistakes.
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Tony Phillips
N524AP, RV 9 (tail wheel)
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08-07-2010, 07:01 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Mendon South Carolina
Posts: 1,391
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Your original post was along the lines of how to handle the situation. I am assuming you mean what should you do about it. Your description of the events was quite detailed but in order to suggest a method of dealing with it more needs to be known about the pilots involved.
Are they long time acqauintences, good friends, new pilot, old time pilots, idiots, or are they normally good well behaved pilots?
If they are longtime local airport residents and normally good pilots I would suggest doing nothing. They know they acted stupidly and in an unsafe manner and probably won't do it again. Everyone at some time does something dumb that ends up being unsafe at the moment and learns from their mistake.
In this case I would just leave it be unless it becomes a recurrent or common event.
Then you have to decide on talking to them or the FAA.
My experience has been that pilots who frequently put others at risk seldom listen to advice unless there is a badge behind it.
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Milt Concannon
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08-07-2010, 08:26 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Keller, TX
Posts: 1,553
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Downwind departure
At both airports I operate primarily from, departing from down wind is the norm. At one of the (NW Regional, 52F, home of our intrepid forum founder) Alliance Airport and Class D is to the west and if you go east or South you have Class B segments to make sure you're handling correctly. Most of my flights either go NE or NW from the 17/35 runway. When taking off on 17, continuing on crosswind and downwind then exiting NE or NW seems to provide minimal disruption to traffic flow.
All rules have exceptions but this seems like a good place to use departing form downwind. Here's a link to the map so you can see for yourself. Any suggestions?
http://www.runwayfinder.com/?loc=52F
BTW in Scenario 1 both pilots should have been announcing their position more and the plane taking off should not have turned crosswind until visual contact was made with the arriving flight. The arriving flight should have made visual contact with the departing flight and if the speeds and positions looked like conflict would happen they should have communicated.
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08-07-2010, 10:40 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,932
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One runway at my home airport specifically requires a downwind departure. Due to the surrounding airspace (other airports that have control zones, ours is uncontrolled) the departure eastbound can be straight out, but the departure from a westbound takeoff requires a climb to downwind and an eastbound departure. From there, you can call one of the surrounding zones and get clearance in if you want to do something else. It's non-standard, yes, but it's also the safest in this location.
It sounds like in scenario #2 the implication is that Plane #1 went around becuase Plane #2 "got pushy" and tried to force his active runway choice on an airplane already in the circuit. Regardless of what traffic had been doing all evening, if the circuit was empty and the windsock was limp, Plane #1 can choose his runway. An airplane in the run-up bay for a conflicting runway does not change that, it just makes it inconvenient for the plane in the run-up bay and if it's safe to do so the pilot of Plane #1 should probably try to accommodate him. But he doesn't have to.
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Rob Prior
1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
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