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  #131  
Old 01-09-2010, 06:51 PM
Mel's Avatar
Mel Mel is online now
 
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Location: Dallas area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeyMike View Post
Since the AOA's for GRT, AFS and Dynon are electronic in nature how difficult could it be to add this feature?
Not sure about the others but the Dynon does this already.
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  #132  
Old 01-09-2010, 08:08 PM
Captain Avgas Captain Avgas is offline
 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaRomeo View Post
Bob,

You've echoed several of my beliefs in your reply, which is precisely why I'm so grateful to have a good friend that is an A&P based on my field. I use him to hopefully lower my chance of a mechanical failure forward of the firewall.
  • He looks over my cowling every time I take it off (I pay him with lunch usually). And usually he finds something to address that I didn't catch.
  • He does the annuals, even though I can legally do them. (I pay him, and he always finds something.)
  • He oversees ALL my firewall forward work (I help and always learn something, but I don't feel qualified to be the only set of eyes that decides how things should be under the cowl). Maybe in another decade or so....
I'll work on the lawnmower engine and the scooter's engine, but not the airplane's (without professional help). Too much riding it.

I tell non-flying friends that our family's plane is amatuer built, but the engine is professionally maintained.

b,
d
I've been an aircraft judge for the Sport Aircraft Association of Australia (Experimental category controlling body) for a number of years now. I'm also a Technical Counsellor. Over the years I've seen a LOT of RV engine installations and to be honest much of what I see causes me considerable anxiety.

Dependent on engine and induction choices, many builders find themselves largely left to their own devices when it comes to FWF installation....and many are simply not up to the challenge either resulting from lack of research or poor mechanical comprehension.

One of the most disconcerting practices I see is builders attempting to make the hoses and fittings supplied with a Vans FWF kit fit an engine configuration that is not stock Vans. The prime example of that is when they buy the Vans carburetted Lycoming FWF kit and attempt to use all the fuel hoses on a vertical induction fuel injected engine.

The smart players replace some of the hoses but many don't (penny pinching). Instead of optimising the fuel line routes for best safety (and getting the hoses fabricated to fit) many simply work backwards and let the fuel hose length determine the route. That results in some shocking decisions.....hoses too close to the exhaust....hoses abrading on other fixtures....insufficient hose length between the moving engine and the stationary engine mount.....excessive bend radius (really common).

Incidentally, in respect of the latter I find very few builders who even know that the recommended minimum bend radius on Teflon fuel hose is considerably larger than the minimum bend radius on conventional rubber fuel hoses. Some builders don't even know whether the hoses supplied with their FWF kit (or supplied by the engine manufacturer) are in fact Teflon or rubber.

And many amateur builders wouldn't have a clue whether their "Teflon" hoses are conductive PTFE or non-conductive. If they buy Teflon hoses from their local hydraulic hose shop there's every chance it will be non-conductive and not suitable for use in an aircraft. For futher information on this topic I recommend this Sacramento Sky Ranch article here.

http://www.sacskyranch.com/statichose.htm

Builders who are worried about safety should start at the start.....and instal their own power plants in accordance with best aviation practices. And if they have any doubts whatsoever about what "best practices" might be then they should heed Doug Reeve's excellent advice and pay a practicing LAME to check everything out very thoroughly.
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Last edited by Captain Avgas : 01-09-2010 at 11:19 PM.
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  #133  
Old 01-09-2010, 09:20 PM
WhiskeyMike WhiskeyMike is offline
 
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Location: WA State
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
Not sure about the others but the Dynon does this already.
Well, I new it was one of those vendors...
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  #134  
Old 01-10-2010, 06:59 AM
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pierre smith pierre smith is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Louisville, Ga
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Default My take on the Dan Lloyd story....

...now that I have 25 hours in my -10, is something like this:

The -10 has an enormous amount of downward pitch upon reduced throttle and it really takes muscle to hold it from pitching downward....so much so, that I'd probably be unwilling to fly it if the trim malfunctioned/lost battery power. As it is, I often use two hands during the flare, it's that heavy with full flaps and no power.

I took an hour of instrument refresher in Dublin, Ga. yesterday, and the RV can be a handful going from slow flight to cruise and back again....I worked my buns off to keep heading, altitude and trim madly at the same time.

If Dan had a power failure, the pitch down would be huge, resulting in a heckuva airspeed, and the resulting ball of aluminum. The aftermath of that wreck was really a very balled up airplane which obviously had a lot of energy/speed on impact.

My best recommendation is to be absolutely familiar with your airplane's pitch attitude during slow flight and approaches. You should be able to reduce power to your usual pattern settings and put the nose exactly where it needs to be for 90, 80 MPH, etc and use the airspeed indicator to verify. Knowing the exact pitch attitude will help you avoid those stall/spin accidents we read about.

Take-off and departure stalls can be avoided by the same principles....don't allow the nose to pitch up if you've forgotten to take out all the up trim you had for landing and stall the airplane. Know the allowable climb pitch limits visually as well and hold the airplane where it needs to be, regardless of the amount of muscle it takes. I had to push with force, under the hood, when I was asked to go from 90MPH to cruise, without going vertical!! Believe me, a -10 with no trim would be a real handful.

Best,
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  #135  
Old 01-10-2010, 09:22 AM
TSwezey TSwezey is offline
 
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Location: Savannah, GA
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Remember that Dan also shifted his battery on this flight. I did a simple calculation of weight and balance and my best quesstimate is that he moved his CG forward by 2.75". That is a lot and if you are not ready for it when the engine quits it could be troublesome. He was probably not ready for the additional stick force required from the CG shift since his CG had always been shifted further back than most due to the light engine. Mine on the other hand is further foward than most but still in Van's range.
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  #136  
Old 01-30-2010, 04:05 AM
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plehrke plehrke is offline
 
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Location: Defiance, MO
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Default AOPA web page to show landing accidents

AOPA Has a page that maps landing accidents. You can sort by aircraft type. The different RV series are broken out seperately. Check it out.
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  #137  
Old 01-30-2010, 06:45 AM
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mv031161 mv031161 is offline
 
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Wow...I read all 14 pages of this post and I loved the way it moved from subject to subject while keeping with the intended purpose...Very rare to have a tread to do that often without drifting into limbo.

I will share my comments with a few bullet points

-first of all...not all acrobatic pilots have a dead wish. Most look at the art of flying and the ability to fly in different attitudes while keeping full control of the aircraft at all times. We want to excell in flying and perform our manuevers very smooth and with art in mind.

- An acrobatic pilot is full aware at all times of the rules and regulations, airspace, etc afecting the typ of flying since his/her airman privileges depend on them. When we fly, we ususally do in our FAA provided practice area. We issue NOTAM"s to make all aware and we talk to ATC...we dont impose onto others, we dont abuse the airspace....We could, but we choose not to because it promotes irresponsible behavior. I in the other hand, have witnessed many ga flyiers flight into airport airpsace completelly unannounced, unaware of the NOTAM and creating a safety issue for us....

- Communicate! Let yourself know where you are if at any airport area.

- Read FAR 91.303. If you depart from the scope of that regulation, you need a waiver issued by the FAA. no if or buts.

- For all of you who attend airshows and like to do flyovers and formation flying over the crowd this does apply to you http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v0...03_006_001.pdf Read 2(a) this is where you will get busted by the FAA!!

- You need an FAA form 8710-7 signed or you will be busted by the FAA. Dont get caught with your pants down.

- For IAC sanctioned events, we are not required an 8710-7.

- An acrobatic pilot dont do any unusual attitude flying below 1,500 feet. that's our safety cushion.

- Bill Finigan definition of control flying: You depart control flying when you loose the ability to make the aircraft do what you want. When this happens, you better have airpace below in order to apply your emergency recover tecnique.

- A show pilot that goes down all the way to the deck has a license issued by an ACE and posses a low level flight priviledge after he has shown and proven to his peers and the FAA he can perform safely.

- Yes is is cool to buss the field 6' above the ground at 180 mph pitch up and roll tight and probably very safe to do 9 out of 10 times. But there will be that one day that a downdraft or quick wind shift that will eat that little cushion between you and the ground and kill yourself.

- Fly within your capabilities. You have nothing to prove to no one and if you decide to fly in any unusual attitude, do so with plenty airspace below you the few first times and if possible with someone qualified.

- About Scott and his accident over GA in his Cessna 210. A few thing that should have happen before the flight were overlooked. #1 his IFR license was not current. #2 there is no prove he ever checked the weather (no duats, never talked to a briefer, no printed records, etc...)

- I fly SE aircraft all the time on my business. It does not matter if it is a brand new factory delivery or my Granpa's 1930's aircraft. My attitude towards SE aircraft is always the same...I always fly on an emergency since there is only one screw in the front. When flying my Pitts S2B for fun, this is a great attitude to have since that thing glides like a brick.

- It does not matter who you are or how much seat time you have or what you fly or do in life. If you dont go IN prepared and be ready to back it up when something happens, you will be behind the curved ball before turning that master switch to the "ON" position.

- Thanks to the original author of this tread for making us think!

My .02 cents (sorry about my english and grammar. Still a foreigner!!!!)
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Last edited by mv031161 : 01-30-2010 at 07:00 AM.
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  #138  
Old 01-30-2010, 08:05 AM
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JonJay JonJay is offline
 
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Location: Battleground
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Default You English is working just fine.... but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mv031161 View Post
My .02 cents (sorry about my english and grammar. Still a foreigner!!!!)
Acrobatic = someone in a circus doing tricks.
Aerobatic = someone in an airplane doing tricks.

Ha!!
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  #139  
Old 05-03-2010, 10:03 PM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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I stumbled on this thread tonight and was interested in the comments made about the Dan Lloyd accident.

While the accident report details the appalling lack of oversight and understanding on many things mechanical, structural and on the paperwork parts, there is no conclusive evidence IMO that any of these were the direct cause of the actual accident. People may wish to believe something different but the facts presented in the final report really leave us with no definitive cause- just lots of questions.

I wrote the following back in July 2009 here on the Dan Lloyd accident thread:

"I looked over most of the data here and some things don't fit together. All the witnesses state that the engine appeared to be running right up to impact. The propeller analysis says the prop was NOT turning at impact. Somebody is mistaken. Given the position of where one blade was found, this would seem to support the conclusion that the prop was not likely turning at impact.

Tox says no CO present. Seems unlikely that the aircraft was on fire prior to impact.

The photo of the contactor connection doesn't allow us to conclude much. The aircraft was absolutely destroyed in the impact judging from the photos. The cable to the contactor could easily have been pulled out of the lug on impact.

The photos of the terrain suggest that there were plenty of open fields to put a plane down in the event of a power loss.

The GPS data is most telling IMO along with the witness statements. GS was down to about 60 knots while the aircraft was in a very tight, banked turn at very low altitude, over 1.5 miles from the airport. Why, we'll never know. In the last 39 seconds before impact, the turn radius tightens up to about 450ft. In the last 10-15 seconds speed bleeds from 90 to 60 knots. If the aircraft was in clean configuration and banked as sharply as the witnesses state with speed bleeding back that rapidly, a stall was imminent. Even with full flap, the aircraft was likely to stall performing this banked turn at such low speed. The last 4-5 seconds saw a loss of altitude of 150-200 feet. Why was he maneuvering at about 200 feet AGL for the last minute of flight so far from the runway?

Best fit is simply a stall while performing a very tight turn at low altitude IMO. Wings level just prior to impact from witness statements suggests the pilot was not incapacitated but perhaps attempting to recover too late. Given that the aircraft slid about 100 feet, this suggests that the impact angle was towards the lower side of the 35-60 degrees estimated and that the final GPS GS report of 71 knots makes sense.

Additional items I noticed on the weight and balance report was that it included the weight of 10 quarts of oil. Perhaps this would have been a clue to an experienced person signing off the aircraft that the whole report was bogus since these engines hold about half that amount. Second, the rear baggage bulkheads were not found at the site. Either not installed or consumed by the fire. These are structural and must be installed for flight."

I absolutely agree with many of the posts here that building everything right and having other pairs of eyes on your project is very important. We want to stack the deck in our favor as much as possible. Shortcuts are rarely a good idea in aviation.
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RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
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  #140  
Old 05-04-2010, 09:52 AM
ron sterba ron sterba is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: salem Oregon
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Thumbs up Experimental planes should be required to have a AOA

Lets face it. not everybody knows how to fly from the seat of their own pants. AOA YES!!.. I always favored a airspeed dial that displayed 0 to 60 on 100 degrees of the dial face and lets say a stall speed for 55MPH always be at the TOP of the dial so the NEEDLE always pointed up. Old friend of mine said when he flew the bombers from yesteryear the engineers gauges' faces were turnable so you could actually turn every guage in the plumbers section so the needles always pointed UP for the normal operating position. This made it easy to do a eye scan rather than remorize every normal setting. How TRUE!! Just my thoughts Ron in Oregon
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