Please don't hit skydivers

[E. D. Eliot]

that no one in his/her right mind would go anywhere near a drop zone intentionally. It's the few who get disoriented, lost, or who didn't read the charts or the notams and don't listen to the av radio on the appropriate frequency that get into trouble. Getting disoriented, not reading charts, no radio, or not reading and heeding the notams is not ok - that's for sure.

I have never jumped out of an airplane and don't have plans to but it seems to me that no matter why the aircraft is in the DZ, the jumper has the better chance to 'see and avoid' as the airplane is a lot easier so see (larger and moving slower). I don't think that I'd have time to maneuver my airplane away from a speeding skydiver even if I saw him/her 5-6 seconds above me. Probably, I'd only mutter something non-profound like Oh S*** and hope for a good outcome for us all.

My guess is that a jumper above is about the size of a fly spec until he/she appears in the field of vision of the pilot for about 1/10 of a second as he/she skydives by. IE - I think it is very unlikely that the pilot will never see the parachutist.

I'll bet that parachutists, have when they have identified an aircraft below as in the clip, avoided aircraft by pulling the rip cord well above the aircraft - they don't have to pass by like a speeding bullet. And if the parachutist doesn't land back at the airport that is better than taking a chance of a collision - right?

[G-force]

Originally Posted by E. D. Eliot

I have never jumped out of an airplane and don't have plans to but it seems to me that no matter why the aircraft is in the DZ, the jumper has the better chance to 'see and avoid' as the airplane is a lot easier so see (larger and moving slower). I don't think that I'd have time to maneuver my airplane away from a speeding skydiver even if I saw him/her 5-6 seconds above me. Probably, I'd only mutter something non-profound like Oh S*** and hope for a good outcome for us all.

The thing is we are traveling in two different vectors, 90 degrees to each other. Falling vertically, a skydiver , takes time to achieve a slight horizontal movement. In lets say 5 or so seconds I doubt I could "sidestep" much more than a few hundred feet by the time I saw the plane, rotated to the direction I think will make me miss it, then assume a tracking position. An RV could in 5 seconds of say a 3 G turn "sidestep" a lot more distance.

My guess is that a jumper above is about the size of a fly spec until he/she appears in the field of vision of the pilot for about 1/10 of a second as he/she skydives by. IE - I think it is very unlikely that the pilot will never see the parachutist.

As is a plane when looking down from 2 miles up and 3-4 miles laterally. Even the largest of planes are lost in the background at those distances and angles.

I'll bet that parachutists, have when they have identified an aircraft below as in the clip, avoided aircraft by pulling the rip cord well above the aircraft - they don't have to pass by like a speeding bullet.

If I had time, and knew jumpers were not above me, popping my chute would be my first instinct. But as you saw in that video, chutes don't open instantaly. In fact, they usualy take around 1000 feet or more to open, depending on how it was packed. On that video, I don't pick up the aircraft untill about the 5 second mark, and I'm looking for it, knowing its there. The guy has tossed out his pilot chute (pulled the ripcord) at the 6-7 second mark (see his left hand come forward to counteract his right hand reaching back for the pilot chute), but isnt under canopy untill around 10 seconds. I think it boils down to neither an aircraft or jumper, if on a colission course, are likely to see each other, and have the ability and/or time to miss each other. Only dumb luck and "its a big sky" is going to prevent colissions if both are in the same airspace at the same time. The jumpers can't move, so I feel its the aircraft that need to avoid the airspace and/or use the radios to keep tabs on the jumping activity.

And if the parachutist doesn't land back at the airport that is better than taking a chance of a collision - right?

Trust me, there is a long list of "must happens" when skydiving...landing back at the airport is pretty far down the list

[E. D. Eliot]

It's more scary now that I am a more informed about skydiving!!! Sounds really dangerous to me. One Summer I saw two skydivers buy the farm in separate incidents at Lake Elsinore - not pretty, etc. That's when I decided not to ever try it.

So how do we educate the pilot who either doesn't know about skydivers in action or who doesn't care? Do we ask the chart makers to make changes on the charts or what? How often is there an aircraft/skydiver 'midair' in the skydiving community? Or close call? I'm convinced - count me out of skydiving and I'll give you guys 5 extra miles leeway.

Thanks for the education!

[Bob Axsom]

Originally Posted by G-force

... I think it boils down to neither an aircraft or jumper, if on a colission course, are likely to see each other, and have the ability and/or time to miss each other. ...)

Best quote!

I worked with Roy Haggard and the people at Vertigo, Inc. at Lake Elsinor(sp?) during the development of a recovery system for a deep space project. Several of them were pilots and sky divers. They were very serious about flying and passionate about their jumping. I think they would agree with your observation - I certainly do. I think within this small group at least the original post has achieved as much as possible of its objective. There are a multitude of sins that lead to conflicts, no pre-flight planning, spontaneous "direct to" GPS navigation in a "paperless cockpit", VFR flight planning with de-cluttered IFR charts, etc. Regardless, the man has raised the awareness of this drop zone for VAF Forum readers that are SNF travelers and asked that they consciously plan their route to avoid the drop zone and not try to deal with it real time when they are also dealing with the stress of fitting into the fly-in arrival procedure. This seems like a reasonable request that should not be reduced to a turf war.

Bob Axsom

[jetjok]

In deference to the original intent of this thread, which I believe was an admonition that there is major skydiving going on in close proximity to SNF, I will spare my complete thoughts on this matter.
However, there are many skydiving operations that are a hazard not only to their customers (victims?), but to the GA public as a whole. Maybe those of you who are serious about this sport should begin to police yourselves in the conduct of those who are jumping, and some of the nut jobs that are flying the jump planes.
Ask me about being buzzed by a near vertical pass of a C-182 jump plane that decided I was too close to "his" jump zone!

[Dmadd]

Jetjok wrote:
However, there are many skydiving operations that are a hazard not only to their customers (victims?), but to the GA public as a whole.

OK ,Mark, I'll bite... Name three.

Jetjok wrote:
Ask me about being buzzed by a near vertical pass of a C-182 jump plane that decided I was too close to "his" jump zone!

Let me guess, he was "descending"... in a notamed drop zone... totally uncharacteristic behavior... <TIC>
If you were close enough to get buzzed by ANY drop zone aircraft, you were right in the middle of the operation, and might even be the star of one of those little films...

[Bob Axsom]

Originally Posted by Dmadd

Jetjok wrote:
However, there are many skydiving operations that are a hazard not only to their customers (victims?), but to the GA public as a whole.

OK ,Mark, I'll bite... Name three.

Jetjok wrote:
Ask me about being buzzed by a near vertical pass of a C-182 jump plane that decided I was too close to "his" jump zone!

Let me guess, he was "descending"... in a notamed drop zone... totally uncharacteristic behavior... <TIC>
If you were close enough to get buzzed by ANY drop zone aircraft, you were right in the middle of the operation, and might even be the star of one of those little films...

Come on! If you want any support for your activity this is not the right way to go about it.

Bob Axsom

[DBone]

G-Force Mike said it best... the reality is jumpers in freefall are not going to see an RV sized airplane until it's too late... And a pilot isn't going to see a skydiver until it's too late. This is a case, I believe, where "see and avoid" just isn't going to cut it. I've been held in the door by the jump pilot more than a few times for traffic below. He knows that because ATC warned him. It's just like most other things... If everybody followed a few simple rules... like pilots avoiding the area or talking to somebody if they have to transit the area and jump pilots talking on CTAF and with ATC... There'd be no problem. But when pilots fly through a DZ not talking to anybody and/or jump pilots don't announce their intentions, we have problems...

The USPA (United States Parachute Association) was pushing hard a few years back to get a skydive symbol added to the nav data that all the GPS's use. I haven't heard anything recently about it, and I don't know why it never went through. With all the glass cockpit technology we're flying around with these days, I find it hard to believe putting a little parachute symbol next to an airport on a GPS would be all that difficult. The data is there somewhere, because the paper charts have it.

I, for one, would love to see this done. With dependency on gps and glass cockpits only getting deeper, I think it's something that needs to be done.

As a side note, part of the problem even for the really well prepared pilot, is the sectionals aren't always up to date on skydiving operations. I suspect part of the problem is the red tape and part of the problem is DZO's not reporting their activity to the right people.

Dave (semi-retired jumper)

[Danger Will Robinson]

Originally Posted by E. D. Eliot

It's more scary now that I am a more informed about skydiving!!! Sounds really dangerous to me. One Summer I saw two skydivers buy the farm in separate incidents at Lake Elsinore - not pretty, etc. That's when I decided not to ever try it.

Does this mean that as soon as you see an aircraft crash you will quit flying?

I've seen jumpers killed and I've seen planes crash, neither is pretty.

Both activities require risk management.

[Danger Will Robinson]

Here's an article by Tom Buchanon the USPA safety & training advisor at a very large drop zone near NEW York City and the author of Jump, Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

http://theblueskyranch.com/sta/tb1.htm

Note the diagram showing the hazard area that a jumper needs to check for traffic.