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  #21  
Old 04-01-2010, 09:06 PM
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Brantel Brantel is offline
 
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In a dual EFIS setup, one could argue this point all day with the exception of the similar code issue taking em both out if there is a bug or similar hardware fault at the same time. Anyone ever had this happen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
Personally, I am in the camp that believes in keeping the A/P separate from, but controllable through, the EFIS for redundancy purposes for IFR. VFR? All in one isn't a bad proposition if it works!

Paul
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Originally Posted by flickroll View Post
I wholeheartedly agree. In the world of IFR, redundancy is King! Which is another reason why the Dynon system is coming out and the AFS system is going in. There were just too many eggs in one basket for my 'old' Dynon panel to be SAFE for IFR. It was legal, but not particularly safe.
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Last edited by Brantel : 04-01-2010 at 09:24 PM.
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  #22  
Old 04-01-2010, 09:18 PM
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Brantel Brantel is offline
 
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I want the legacy system to deliver the features that were marketed at the time I purchased it in a well working manner without bugs or performance issues that render the feature unusable.

They must get the AP working and working well in the legacy system or the future of Dynon is dark. I would expect nothing more from the legacy system as Dynon never comited to anything more. (except the AP76 but forget that, its another story)

Prospective customers of the Skyview are never going to commit to a company that never finishes what they started...Buying a Skyview today is placing a huge amount of faith in Dynon making good on all of the planned features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radomir View Post
What would you expect of legacy systems? What improvements can they make? I'm not sure they're intentionally forcing an upgrade, but hardware can do only so much before you max it out. Legacy system does what it does well.. but that's about it.

It really looks like they were busy selling legacy systems (in large volumes) at expense of new developments... Would have been OK if competition didn't exist

The worst case scenario is to have a whole gamut of products.. none of them doing anything particularly "advanced."
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Last edited by Brantel : 11-01-2012 at 08:53 AM.
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  #23  
Old 04-01-2010, 09:49 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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I htink we're pretty much onthe same page Brian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brantel View Post
In a dual EFIS setup, one could argue this point all day with the exception of the similar code issue taking em both out if there is a bug or similar hardware fault at the same time. Anyone ever had this happen?
Since you asked - yes....very rare, but yes, I have had a code bug bring down two displays in a two-display system (it was during installation, during a software upgrade). It was on the Dynon I am afraid - legacy systems, several code versions before, no problems since.

And lest anyone thing I am knocking Dynon (the company went overboard in getting it fixed FAST, and we were very pleased), I've also had this happen with extremely expensive multi-computer aerospace systems - inflight. Which is why I like dis-similar redundancy. No design is perfect!

Paul
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Last edited by Ironflight : 04-01-2010 at 10:10 PM.
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  #24  
Old 04-01-2010, 10:17 PM
jeff beckley jeff beckley is offline
 
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I have to brag on Trutrak EFIS. I was once a Blue Mountain sufferer and swore that I would not ever buy another autopilot that was driven by an EFIS until TT came out with there EFIS. The difference is that the EFIS IS the autopilot just as the control head for all there other products are with the exception that the AP controller is graphical. Instead of a few lines of LCD text you get a full HSI, CDI, Horizon, Air Speed, everything to replace standard six pack and much more.
TruTrak has no intentions of adding mapping features for now but that is not the focus of there EFIS. It is designed to allow precise control of your aircraft with integration from most nav radios including the 430w. It fly's IFR approaches and Vnav/LPV and GPS approaches better than any other autopilot I have seen. Even better than the top of the line Stec. I find it is silky smooth in rough air as well as smooth air. Has voice annunciations for every facet of the flight like loss of GPS signal or positive capture of the glide slope or if the LPV approach was downgraded by the 430W or if you are out of trim.
A real safety feature if something changes in your flight or approach if you happen to be looking somewhere else.

The display is bright and laid out in such a way that the data is easy to understand. Very small learning curve.

The design of the software is exceptional with all functions related to any type of approach using only one key press. NO sub menus to thumb through. Every feature you need for the phase of flight you are in at the moment is represented above one of the five buttons. Two knobs on the left and right control heading and altitude respectively.
Performance is stellar! Never has missed Que to capture G/S or wandered off course even a few feet. You can preselect altitude, Control rate of climb or descent by a simple twist of the knob. Holds altitude within 10 feet.
Incredibly simple to use but very intelligent.
It will not let the aircraft stall even in an accelerated climbing turn or low airspeed. One feature is the Level button (I call it the OH S&^T!! Button) A separate button placed any where that when pressed will level and regain control of the aircraft if you happen to get into some trouble. Real nice to simply press if you need to shift focus to get something from the back like a chart or puke bag.
It is designed to be the best autopilot you can buy. If you need mapping then add a 496 or 560. The EFIS IS THE AUTOPILOT CONTROLLER, not just a Geewhizzbang display that just happens to give limited control over a set of servos while struggling to decode data from a WASS receiver.

I regularly fly IFR down to minimums with this display. I completely trust it.
BUT!! I also have backup AS,ALT,and a Trutrak ADI with battery backup that displays additional Horizon,GPS Heading,Turn slip/ball just in case the display goes bad. Any EFIS can go t*ts up and without backups you better not venture into IFR regardless if the display is tied into the AP or not.
Dynon has a nice display but it is not ready for prime time AP control. They are also a good strong company that will be around for a long time. They are less expensive but the AP features are also not there. Maybe after they get the SkyView fully launched they will focus on the AP but even then it will take a while.
TruTrak is fully mature. All of the features are fully active. I am not waiting for any more updates to make it more usable or stable. Well maybe a auto land feature
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Last edited by jeff beckley : 04-01-2010 at 10:39 PM.
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  #25  
Old 04-01-2010, 11:00 PM
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rvmills rvmills is offline
 
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I'm hoping Brian is right, and Dynon continues to deliver improvements to their AP. Hopefully it will be not only because the SkyView needs a top-notch AP to be competetive with other upper-tier glass products (think Syntetic Vision, etc.) but also because legacy product users (like me) want all the features and performance of stand alone standouts like TT and Trio. If Skyview pulls the AP development along, then its for the betterment of all Dynon AP users...so I do hope Brian is correct!

For Weasel, I have a Dynon AP (D100, D10A, AP-74, SV-32 x2) in my 6, and have flown a fair bit in my friend's 9A with a TT DFII-VSG. We talked about this thread today, and compared capabilities, and I looked again at the TT site to double check. I'd give his TT VSG the edge in performance and smoothness, and mine the edge in features and capabilities (at least for the way I like to fly the AP, which can vary from pilot to pilot, so its a bit of opinion). Here's some thoughts for your research...not gospel, just one user's thoughts:

In performance, his TT is rock solid in pitch and roll...its really a nice ride. Comparing his 9A to my clipped wing Super 6 may be a bit unfair, but his ride is better, and is what I'm looking for. I'm getting close, but did have some pitch oscillations early-on, which have been mostly mitigated by doing the pitch servo shear screw service, and playing with the settings. I now have solid altitude hold except in bumps, which I can ease with setting control. Still an occasional oscillation, and not quite as smooth as the 9A/TT, but getting better.

In roll, I had better performance in NAV than in HDG, but a few compass cals helped that immensly, as did playing with the settings. I had the "NAV Source Lost" issue that appears to have been fixed with FW updates (big X-C next week to see...and will see if 5.3 shows more improvements...putting that in this week). Dan's 9A/TT is more solid in heading than mine, but I'm starting to approach it.

One area where the Dynon shines (IMHO) with the ability to pre-select altitude settings. My AP will climb/descend to the preset alt at (well close to) the configured VSI and level off. Dan's VSG will not do that. He has to level off and engage ALT hold. A VSGV may or may not level off at a preset alt, but I can't tell from the website (don't want to put out bad gouge...someone else will know for sure).

However, Dan can climb/descend at a particular VSI, and can adjust the rate of climb/descent right on the control head, which I cannot do. I have to go into a menu on the EFIS, and hope that Dynon will add that capability to the AP-74 value knob. An earlier poster mentioned the varied VSI he saw in climbs/descents, and I see that as well. I asked Dynon about that, and the response was somewhat cryptic, in that the instantaneous rate may be being adjusted throughout the descent to give a final average rate of the selected value ie, 500 fpm selected = 4 minutes to descend 2,000 feet, and the VSI is adjusted to meet that target. Just not sure how they do it, but mine does hit time to climb/descend targets, as measured in flight.

The AP-74 is a slick control head, and may give a few more selectable items to the pilot (preset HDG & ALT, Altimeter...I just want to add VSI!). The TT control head has a nice moving out of trim indicator, perhaps better than the Dynon's "UP/DN" flags...but the Dynon indicator is on the EFIS, where one's scan is focused more often, so that may be a wash.

The VSGV has GPSS and GPSV, while the VSG has only GPSS. The Dynon AP has GPSS, but won't have the GPSV until the AP-76 is a reality (or they change something else) at least that's the way I understand it. Therefore, I feel my Dynon AP's feature set falls between the VSG and the VSGV. TT has a few things I covet, and my Dynon has some things I'm very happy with, as described above.

When doing my panel upgrade I was going to add a TT and a backup airspeed indicator to my D100 panel, but when Dynon annouced it's AP, I realized I could get a second EFIS (for all the backup instruments), two servos and an AP-74 for less than a TT VSG, so I went that way. Granted, I have a VFR panel (VFR GPS and no VOR/ILS), so the separate manufacturer redundency was less critical to me...though I certainly respect it as an IFR pilot. If you're building an IFR machine, that may be a more important factor, and GPSV and coupled approaches may be as well. I hope the Dynon AP gets there. I'm happy with it on my airplane, in my VFR mission. In my case more equipment and features (extra EFIS and the AP) for less $$ has worked well. All the bells and whistles and cost savings in the world aren't worth it if it won't work in your aircraft...but Dynon has been very proactive in fixes and updates. Just wanted to give you some feedback to apply towards your plane/misson, and hope it helps. Have fun putting it together, whichever way you go!

Cheers,
Bob
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  #26  
Old 04-02-2010, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brantel View Post
In a dual EFIS setup, one could argue this point all day with the exception of the similar code issue taking em both out if there is a bug or similar hardware fault at the same time. Anyone ever had this happen?
That has never happened to me but it can and does happen. Dynon had an issue with their 5.2 release when both a 100 and a 180 were in the same setup. AFS recently had a mandatory service bulletin over a software bug. So redundancy does not necessarily mean 2 independent EFIS units from the same manufacturer. I will have redundant AFS EFIS units (with battery backup) in my new installation, but will also have a TT AP which by itself can keep the blue side up, plus a 696 whose GPS derived 6 pack will also allow you to keep the blue side up. The 696 also has an internal battery, and I'll feel pretty safe with this panel.
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Last edited by flickroll : 04-02-2010 at 08:38 AM.
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  #27  
Old 04-02-2010, 12:32 PM
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Wesael Wesael is offline
 
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Default Thanks a lot on all your input.

I really appreciate all the information that yall have put forth.

I currently fly behind a Trio and have flown quite a few different airplanes with TT.

However I have never flown behind Dynon's AP.

Now after reading this tread I feel like I have.

Thanks to all!
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  #28  
Old 04-02-2010, 01:27 PM
wjnmd wjnmd is offline
 
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Default What about the ADI Pilot II?

These have been some very good thought provoking posts. I was thinking about putting in the Trutrak EFIS/Autopilot and EMS for my panel upgrade but if it is better to have the autopilot as a separate unit then I could look into a Dynon or AFS EFIS and EMS. Both of those appear to be excellent units but I hear uniformly good things about the Trutrak autopilot. My question is whether or not the Trutrak ADI Pilot II complies with the required gyro attitude indicator and gyro heading indicator for instrument flight since it is also an autopilot. Since I am a pay-as-you-go type builder,this would allow an upgrade to the ADI Pilot II and then put in the EFIS and EMS later. I appreciate any thoughts or critiques of my logic.

Bill Near
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  #29  
Old 04-02-2010, 02:04 PM
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RONSIM RONSIM is offline
 
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Default Not in my opinion

Bill, we have the ADI II in both our RV-8A and RV-10 at KCLW -- GREAT units and do a good job. However, for IFR attitude and heading info, the information provided by the ADI II is too limited. the attitude picture is very limited in roll and pitch, and the "track" info is GPS derived. I would recommend having a "real" AI and HI, in some other format for IFR work, using the ADI II as "backup". Again, as an autopilot, the TT works really well.
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  #30  
Old 04-02-2010, 09:32 PM
Frank Smidler Frank Smidler is offline
 
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Default New TruTrak EFIS GP

I see that TruTrak has a new, lower cost EFIS system announced in a full page ad in the new (April) Sports Aviation. The $2200 price mentioned is considerable less than the SG base $3800. What the ad did not tell is what is different with this unit. I went to their web site and the GP was not even mentioned. Does anyone know anything about this unit? Is it the same size as the SG? What functionality was lost?
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