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01-15-2010, 05:02 PM
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Super Moderator
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 2,626
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I'm in the same boat as Scott here, and I haven't decided if I am going to do it yet or not. Having just finished painting and starting the flight test program, I am not real anxious to tear up the doors. Especially since I added nice wooden door sills, even the supplied kit will take some modification for me.
So here's what I've noticed on my second RV-10. We all get to improve some things when we redo it, huh?  I used the aftermarket aluminum door guides and really got a nice tight fit on the doors this time. I have not noticed the bowing out of the doors in flight that I clearly noticed on the last one. I did wire the door warning light circuitry and have 2 nice big red lights directly in front of the pilot. I also wired the power to that circuit to a micro switch on the throttle quadrant, so in the summer when we taxi with the doors open I won't learn to ignore the lights. They should just come on when the throttle is advanced for takeoff power and the doors aren't secured. I get to check them every time on the preflight with power applied.
Since no one flies my airplane except me, I know to pay attention to the doors, and am in a habit of verifying and calling "doors latched" prior to takeoff.
For those of you who happen to be in the same frame of mind, what I would encourage all of us to do is to at least comply with the SB IF and WHEN you should happen to sell your airplane.
Vic
__________________
 Vic Syracuse
Built RV-4, RV-6, 2-RV-10's, RV-7A, RV-8, Prescott Pusher, Kitfox Model II, Kitfox Speedster, Kitfox 7 Super Sport, Just Superstol, DAR, A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor, CFII-ASMEL/ASES
Kitplanes "Unairworthy" monthly feature
EAA Sport Aviation "Checkpoints" column
EAA Homebuilt Council Chair/member EAA BOD
Author "Pre-Buy Guide for Amateur-Built Aircraft"
www.Baselegaviation.com
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01-15-2010, 06:47 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cedar Park, TX
Posts: 3,156
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Very interesting from the point of view of a non -10 pilot. We are totally anal in our -9 of calling "Canopy - Canopy" (side latch, overhead latch), just before pulling out on the runway for takeoff! Seems much the same. If it isn't called, there should be a big *** kicking just at lift off when you realize it...
__________________
Scott Card
CQ Headset by Card Machine Works
CMW E-Lift
RV-9A N4822C flying 2200+hrs. / Cedar Park, TX
RV8 Building - fuselage / showplanes canopy (Done!)
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01-15-2010, 07:28 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pleasant Prairie,Wisconsin
Posts: 67
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more lipstick on a pig
During the construction of my plane which was the 10th. kit sold I was not satisfied with the door design or mechanism. Unable to lock the doors was the first issue for me, the inner door handle was the only thing to grab to close the door and it was awkwardly located forward so that as you pulled the door closed it rotated the handle forward making the doorpins protrude outward and hit the outside of the door opening, goodbye paint.
Looking for options I came across the Hendricks flush latches and started working on how to install them. They were very time consuming but now, I feel worth it. I could now lock my door and have the flush external appearance. I added armrests that provided a separate handle to grab onto to close the door. Then came the door pins and guides from Rivethead Aero and later I Fly RV-10.com that significantly improved the performance of the latching and also would keep the paint on the plane if the latch was in the closed position when the door was being closed.
Van's then gave us the indicator lights with the proximity sensors. I looked at them and felt the wiring scheme was the long way around and I didn't like the radio shack components, but the idea of monitoring the pin position was sound thinking. I installed my own LED indicators connected to micro-switches that could be adjusted so that the only way to get two green lights was for the pins to be fully engaged in the door jamb. Similar to the proximity but a mechanical switch instead. One switch was fed the positive on a 2 amp fuse and the other switch the negative. The only way possible to get a green light is for both the front and rear pins to be fully engaged.
However, given all of the time spent upgrading the doors, I as Scott Schmidt and others have mentioned, still manually check the doors to be sure they are closed.
I know that installing the pins and guides from what ever source you choose improves the door operation significantly because I had the delrin door guides and then Rivethead guides and pins.
Finally, It would be nice to know if the aircraft that have had door departures had any of the upgrades already available to them installed and which ones.
As far as installing this latest wonder on my plane... I don't think so. Looks gotta count for something!
Don Orrick
N410JA Flying
40010
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01-15-2010, 10:21 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: GI, Nebraska
Posts: 173
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You trust your life to idiot lites?
I fully agree with Scott and his post. I would add to the reasons the doors may be opening is poor construction and/or amending the door pin measurements to make the pins not protrude out so far and scratch the paint when shut accidently. Look at some of the GAPS in these doors on some finished planes and the way the door seal is attached.
These planes are not aerobatic either. Doors made per the plans and flown per the specs will not accidently come open during flight. I am sure LIABILITY is driving this SB and I am also sure the RV community will engineer a much better fix (if needed) than what is proposed.
My 2 cents to a senseless issue.
DEAN
400 hours and heading for 500!
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01-16-2010, 03:25 AM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brisbane Qld. Aust.
Posts: 2,271
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Agree with Scott, however a few months ago we realised how much the door on the RHS sucks out from the fuse, so we went looking for a pin/latching mechanism that prevented the 1/4" gap that appears in flight.
I have seen photo's of other RV-10's with the door clearly sucking out.
So we found a home type door pin latch and fashioned it into the door and sill and rather like the Vans set upin a way.
It works well. Stops the door being sucked out.
Our main reason aside from the flexing of the door was that if you accidently pulled the door lever up far enough (we have a Hendricks system) and that would be a long way up of course, the door pins would disengage. At least with the extra pin/latch the door should not open.
All it takes is a shirt/jacket sleeve or a headset cord to pull the door lever up!
So aside from the obvious pre takeoff checks, it could happen in flight.
Our door pins are monitored and alarmed by the Dynon system and that works well!
DB
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01-16-2010, 05:28 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 1,849
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There is no way to accidently pull the Vans door handle up during flight if the thing is pushed fully down. It will lock.
__________________
Todd
N110TD
RV-10 Vesta V8 LS2/BMA EFIS/One formerly flying at 3J1 Hobbs stopped at 150 hours
Savannah, GA and Ridgeland, SC
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01-16-2010, 08:58 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Gilford,NH
Posts: 90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSwezey
There is no way to accidently pull the Vans door handle up during flight if the thing is pushed fully down. It will lock.
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As a new owner of an RV-10 can anyone tell me have thiese door problems happened when the doors were properly locked or did they happen if they weren't properly locked. My doors seem to lock well but I'm concerned could they still open?
Alan
N668G
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01-16-2010, 10:04 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: New Smyrna Beach, FL
Posts: 1,339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV10inOz
Agree with Scott, however a few months ago we realised how much the door on the RHS sucks out from the fuse, so we went looking for a pin/latching mechanism that prevented the 1/4" gap that appears in flight.
I have seen photo's of other RV-10's with the door clearly sucking out.
So we found a home type door pin latch and fashioned it into the door and sill and rather like the Vans set upin a way.
It works well. Stops the door being sucked out.
Our main reason aside from the flexing of the door was that if you accidently pulled the door lever up far enough (we have a Hendricks system) and that would be a long way up of course, the door pins would disengage. At least with the extra pin/latch the door should not open.
All it takes is a shirt/jacket sleeve or a headset cord to pull the door lever up!
So aside from the obvious pre takeoff checks, it could happen in flight.
Our door pins are monitored and alarmed by the Dynon system and that works well!
DB
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If the Van's door latch is working properly, the handle cannot be moved from the shut position towards the open position without pushing a release button. So, does the Hendricks system not have a similar locking mechanism when the door is shut? If that is the case, I would consider that an unacceptable system.
__________________
David Maib
RV-10 N380DM
New Smyrna Beach, FL
VAF Paid 1/21/2020
"In '69 I was 21, and I called the road my own"
Jackson Browne
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01-16-2010, 10:30 AM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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my 2 cents
I have to agree with Scott, and Don O. here, at least as far as Vans door light system is designed. I used their magnetic switches, but I didnt like the use of continuous power, to turn a light off.
Instead, I wired the system with green lights, and a "push to test" button. The button switches and lights are all in series to give a green "OK" light only when both pins on a door are engaged. I have two lights, one for each door-----that way I know which door is not latched. The door test will be an item on the check list. And power is only used for the test.
As I didnt build the doors, I cant say a lot about the installation process, and initial setup of the mechanism.
But when the doors started departing the planes in flight, I went over my system VERY carefully, and found the previous owner had one of the pins a bit short of good engagement. This prompted me to made a change in the gear rack for the pins, instead of the pop rivet as a travel stop, I drilled and tapped the end of the rack, so a screw and washer could be inserted in from the end, this allows a little bit more travel for the rod into the door frame, and provides a more positive stop for the gear rack in its plastic guide block.
Another way to achieve a better stop is to use a roll pin as as the stop, instead of the rivet, have it stick out a quarter inch on both sides.
As to the current SB, I think I am going to take a "wait and see" position here, I feel that a properly installed system which is verified each flight is all that is needed.
I agree with a prior post, liability is probably what is driving this. And, yes, at the least, install prior to sale.
One last bit of observation here, with the inner handle located at the front of the door----(needs to be there due to seating position), and the hold open strut at the rear of the door, the forces involved actually set up the rear pin to be problematic.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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01-16-2010, 12:36 PM
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Super Moderator
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 1,158
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Lets amend the SB.
I suggest that all RV-10 builders and flyers with serial numbers write Van's at info@vansaircraft.com
I have done the same and have asked Van's to retract the Service Bulletin and offer the latch as an additional and optional latch just as the indicator lights were offered.
I want to summarize what I have heard here.
Issues with the door will arise if:
-Poor door construction causing a bow during flight (Construction error) (Fix: Re-build door or add Van's center latch)
-Pins are not inserted far enough into the aluminum frame (Construction error) (Fix: Re-build pins to extend into aluminum frame)
-Door handle interlock is not engaged (Construction error and/or pilot error) (Fix: Ensure handles are locked before flight, possible rebuild of interlock)
-Door pins were locked outside of cabin (Pilot error)(Fix: Add door check to checklist)
I am fine with Van's offering this as an optional kit but when they say on the service bulletin that it is mandatory, I have a problem.
This is 100% different from the previous SB where we added stiffeners to the vertical stabilizer and empenage.
I want everyone to fly safe and keep our insurance as low as possible, I don't see this as the solution though.
We need to take personal responsibility to build to the highest quality and use our checklists thoroughly.
Any system that is put into place (such as our checklists) is never fixed with more protection devices, systems only work and are improved through training and discipline.
This solution is like adding a fixed gear to the bottom of a retractable landing gear aircraft. It will be there just in case you don't put the gear down.
The warnings lights and center latch should be optional as 100% safe flight can be accomplished with the stock system. I do feel there are may pilots flying safely without even the lights because of their training and checklist discipline. The experimental category will always have construction issues and must accept personal responsibility for that and not burden the whole fleet with the quality shortcomings of the few.
I want everyone to fly safe, have fun and explore this world with their planes and I appreciate Van's offering a system that solves a problem that a few of RV-10's have with the doors bowing as a total replacement of the door is very expensive.
Again, please write Van's and ask for the removal of this SB and make it optional.
__________________
Scott Schmidt
Salt Lake City, UT
RV-10 N104XP (1280 Hours)
RV-12 N321UT (Sold)
Last edited by ScottSchmidt : 01-16-2010 at 01:34 PM.
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