VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > Main > Safety
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #41  
Old 01-04-2010, 04:24 PM
LettersFromFlyoverCountry's Avatar
LettersFromFlyoverCountry LettersFromFlyoverCountry is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN.
Posts: 4,792
Default

One of the things about the NTSB reports that bug me is they're not consistent in what they report. Some investigators will indicate total time in type, some won't. That's too bad because that would be very helpful information.

Richard Collins did a study a few years ago that show most accidents occur in the first hours of a pilot in type. A Cirrus group just released a study, on the other hand, that showed most of the accidents in the Cirrus are with pilots who had a comparatively high number of hours, even in type.

It would be helpful to have the information to analyze whether the mistakes we're making are as a result of unfamiliarity, stupidity, or complacency.
__________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, MN.
Blog: Letters From Flyover Country
RV-12iS Powerplant kit
N612EF Builder log (EAA Builder log)
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 01-04-2010, 04:32 PM
RV6_flyer's Avatar
RV6_flyer RV6_flyer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NC25
Posts: 3,508
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveciha View Post
After flying RV's for 12 years now and staying alive doing it, those statistics were alarming. I wish someone with the knowledge and ability would carefully dissect a few of these accidents and incorporate them into an Airventure forum on RV Safety.

Steve Ciha
Doug Rozendaal:

You have been know to put on talks about safety to EAA chapters, can you find the time in your busy Warbird Schedule to put on an RV Safety Forum for us at AirVenture?

I like Steve have 12-years flying my RV. I have at least 14-RV friends that have had fatal accidents. IMHO, one accident is one to many.
__________________
Gary A. Sobek
NC25 RV-6
Flying
3,400+ hours
Where is N157GS
Building RV-8 S/N: 80012

To most people, the sky is the limit.
To those who love aviation, the sky is home.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 01-04-2010, 04:58 PM
JonJay's Avatar
JonJay JonJay is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Battleground
Posts: 4,348
Default Are there any common RV related traits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RV6_flyer View Post
Doug Rozendaal:

You have been know to put on talks about safety to EAA chapters, can you find the time in your busy Warbird Schedule to put on an RV Safety Forum for us at AirVenture?

I like Steve have 12-years flying my RV. I have at least 14-RV friends that have had fatal accidents. IMHO, one accident is one to many.
If we cant find any common problems that separate our machines from the GA population, it will just be another safety seminar, not that that would be a bad thing.

Wow, Gary, that is a sobering statistic! Way too many friends to lose, let alone in RV's. In all that experience, does any one thing tie them together?
__________________
Smart People do Stupid things all the time. I know, I've seen me do'em.

RV6 - Builder/Flying
Bucker Jungmann
Fiat G.46 -(restoration in progress, if I have enough life left in me)
RV1 - Proud Pilot.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 01-04-2010, 05:25 PM
B25Flyer B25Flyer is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 358
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJay View Post

Wow, Gary, that is a sobering statistic! Way too many friends to lose, let alone in RV's. In all that experience, does any one thing tie them together?
If I may, Jon, I will share my answer to that...

Several things, but the most important are:
They were flying RVs.
They did not intend to kill themselves.
They believed they were capable of accomplishing what ever they did that killed them.

I know because I too have lost way too many friends in airplanes. That is why I beat the drum here and in the Warbird and Airshow communities.

Tailwinds,
Doug
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 01-04-2010, 05:51 PM
Ron Lee's Avatar
Ron Lee Ron Lee is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,275
Default

Some time ago I started a thread about creating an RV safety course. Cover the major accident causal factors.

Some people are Darwinistic (Refer to one notable RV-10 pilot) and are destined to die flying. But if you get the majority of trainable pilots to learn to say no to flying when it is bad, avoid get there-itis, don't hesitate to cancel a trip, accept a delay, do a 180 and land, know the basics...then the accident rate should be easily reduced by 50% or more.

But there was no support for such a course.

So I do what I have to do to ensure that I won't be in an NTSB report.

Last edited by Ron Lee : 01-04-2010 at 05:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 01-04-2010, 05:59 PM
JonJay's Avatar
JonJay JonJay is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Battleground
Posts: 4,348
Default Thats the same list....

Quote:
Originally Posted by B25Flyer View Post
If I may, Jon, I will share my answer to that...

Several things, but the most important are:
They were flying RVs.
They did not intend to kill themselves.
They believed they were capable of accomplishing what ever they did that killed them.

I know because I too have lost way too many friends in airplanes. That is why I beat the drum here and in the Warbird and Airshow communities.

Tailwinds,
Doug
I appreciate it very much Doug and the drum does not get beat often enough. But substitute RV, or Warbird, with Airplane in your list and you have the same list as with any airplane.
It would be great to know if there is anything specific to the type, an RV, that keeps popping up.
I am glad you beat the drum and like Gary said, one accident is too many. But if we can not find any common causes, common to the RV specifically, then RV specific safety training is no different than what is currently available through the EAA, AOPA, and other resources.
One thing might be different, even if there are no commonalities. If you advertise an RV Safety forum, you will get a lot of interest and attendance from the RV community. That would be a good thing regardless. Let's keep pushing Steve's idea.
__________________
Smart People do Stupid things all the time. I know, I've seen me do'em.

RV6 - Builder/Flying
Bucker Jungmann
Fiat G.46 -(restoration in progress, if I have enough life left in me)
RV1 - Proud Pilot.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 01-04-2010, 06:41 PM
Buggsy2's Avatar
Buggsy2 Buggsy2 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NorCal
Posts: 565
Default Have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RV6_flyer View Post
I have at least 14-RV friends that have had fatal accidents.
"Had", right? Sorry. I'm not trying to joke about a serious topic, but 14--wow. I sure hope you know lots and lots of RV'ers. Or maybe we simply shouldn't be your friend?

I've read the posts in this thread and find them interesting. For instance, the idea of flying with and learning from more experienced pilots. My take on this is that the act of flying with the more experienced pilot does little to reduce the less experienced pilot's chance of an accident. Rather, it is the attitude displayed that is the key, that is, the humility to keep learning, the humbleness to know that one does not know. Kinda zen, maybe.

I also like Robert Nuckolls' take on some incidents. What might seem like an unavoidable equipment failure in fact can be turned from life-threatening to annoying incident by first, knowing and understanding your systems, and second, by designing the systems (in Bob realm, electrical systems) so they cannot cause a crisis.

Ultimately it's probably the same old line: the ones reading this thread aren't the ones that need to change their ways to reduce their chance of an accident.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 01-04-2010, 07:27 PM
Ron Lee's Avatar
Ron Lee Ron Lee is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,275
Default

Assuming no problem with AOPA, they have enough online courses to provide a basis for a safety program. Have people complete those, then have a forum where the main issues can be discussed.

In reality, my view is that the main issue is judgment. Know when to say no.

Beaucoup cases to show that, such as the plane that took off from the LOE fly in into a thunderstorm cell. Two fatalities that were 100% avoidable.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 01-04-2010, 07:30 PM
n5lp's Avatar
n5lp n5lp is offline
fugio ergo sum
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Carlsbad, NM
Posts: 1,912
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Lee View Post
...Beaucoup cases to show that, such as the plane that took off from the LOE fly in into a thunderstorm cell. Two fatalities that were 100% avoidable.
Just to clarify, for those that are not familiar with this accident. The airplane referred to was a factory airplane.
__________________
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM

RV-6 N441LP Flying
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 01-04-2010, 08:16 PM
Ron Lee's Avatar
Ron Lee Ron Lee is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,275
Default

Good clarification Larry. The point was that the aircraft was not the problem and that may be the case most of the time. It is the pilot. Poor judgment and probably get home-itis
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:47 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.