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01-04-2010, 04:24 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN.
Posts: 4,792
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One of the things about the NTSB reports that bug me is they're not consistent in what they report. Some investigators will indicate total time in type, some won't. That's too bad because that would be very helpful information.
Richard Collins did a study a few years ago that show most accidents occur in the first hours of a pilot in type. A Cirrus group just released a study, on the other hand, that showed most of the accidents in the Cirrus are with pilots who had a comparatively high number of hours, even in type.
It would be helpful to have the information to analyze whether the mistakes we're making are as a result of unfamiliarity, stupidity, or complacency.
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01-04-2010, 04:32 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NC25
Posts: 3,508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveciha
After flying RV's for 12 years now and staying alive doing it, those statistics were alarming. I wish someone with the knowledge and ability would carefully dissect a few of these accidents and incorporate them into an Airventure forum on RV Safety.
Steve Ciha
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Doug Rozendaal:
You have been know to put on talks about safety to EAA chapters, can you find the time in your busy Warbird Schedule to put on an RV Safety Forum for us at AirVenture?
I like Steve have 12-years flying my RV. I have at least 14-RV friends that have had fatal accidents. IMHO, one accident is one to many.
__________________
Gary A. Sobek
NC25 RV-6 Flying
3,400+ hours
Where is N157GS
Building RV-8 S/N: 80012
To most people, the sky is the limit.
To those who love aviation, the sky is home.
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01-04-2010, 04:58 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Battleground
Posts: 4,348
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Are there any common RV related traits?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RV6_flyer
Doug Rozendaal:
You have been know to put on talks about safety to EAA chapters, can you find the time in your busy Warbird Schedule to put on an RV Safety Forum for us at AirVenture?
I like Steve have 12-years flying my RV. I have at least 14-RV friends that have had fatal accidents. IMHO, one accident is one to many.
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If we cant find any common problems that separate our machines from the GA population, it will just be another safety seminar, not that that would be a bad thing.
Wow, Gary, that is a sobering statistic! Way too many friends to lose, let alone in RV's. In all that experience, does any one thing tie them together?
__________________
Smart People do Stupid things all the time. I know, I've seen me do'em.
RV6 - Builder/Flying
Bucker Jungmann
Fiat G.46 -(restoration in progress, if I have enough life left in me)
RV1 - Proud Pilot.
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01-04-2010, 05:25 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJay
Wow, Gary, that is a sobering statistic! Way too many friends to lose, let alone in RV's. In all that experience, does any one thing tie them together?
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If I may, Jon, I will share my answer to that...
Several things, but the most important are:
They were flying RVs.
They did not intend to kill themselves.
They believed they were capable of accomplishing what ever they did that killed them.
I know because I too have lost way too many friends in airplanes. That is why I beat the drum here and in the Warbird and Airshow communities.
Tailwinds,
Doug
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01-04-2010, 05:51 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,275
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Some time ago I started a thread about creating an RV safety course. Cover the major accident causal factors.
Some people are Darwinistic (Refer to one notable RV-10 pilot) and are destined to die flying. But if you get the majority of trainable pilots to learn to say no to flying when it is bad, avoid get there-itis, don't hesitate to cancel a trip, accept a delay, do a 180 and land, know the basics...then the accident rate should be easily reduced by 50% or more.
But there was no support for such a course.
So I do what I have to do to ensure that I won't be in an NTSB report.
Last edited by Ron Lee : 01-04-2010 at 05:58 PM.
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01-04-2010, 05:59 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Battleground
Posts: 4,348
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Thats the same list....
Quote:
Originally Posted by B25Flyer
If I may, Jon, I will share my answer to that...
Several things, but the most important are:
They were flying RVs.
They did not intend to kill themselves.
They believed they were capable of accomplishing what ever they did that killed them.
I know because I too have lost way too many friends in airplanes. That is why I beat the drum here and in the Warbird and Airshow communities.
Tailwinds,
Doug
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I appreciate it very much Doug and the drum does not get beat often enough. But substitute RV, or Warbird, with Airplane in your list and you have the same list as with any airplane.
It would be great to know if there is anything specific to the type, an RV, that keeps popping up.
I am glad you beat the drum and like Gary said, one accident is too many. But if we can not find any common causes, common to the RV specifically, then RV specific safety training is no different than what is currently available through the EAA, AOPA, and other resources.
One thing might be different, even if there are no commonalities. If you advertise an RV Safety forum, you will get a lot of interest and attendance from the RV community. That would be a good thing regardless. Let's keep pushing Steve's idea.
__________________
Smart People do Stupid things all the time. I know, I've seen me do'em.
RV6 - Builder/Flying
Bucker Jungmann
Fiat G.46 -(restoration in progress, if I have enough life left in me)
RV1 - Proud Pilot.
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01-04-2010, 06:41 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NorCal
Posts: 565
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Have?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RV6_flyer
I have at least 14-RV friends that have had fatal accidents.
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"Had", right? Sorry. I'm not trying to joke about a serious topic, but 14--wow. I sure hope you know lots and lots of RV'ers. Or maybe we simply shouldn't be your friend?
I've read the posts in this thread and find them interesting. For instance, the idea of flying with and learning from more experienced pilots. My take on this is that the act of flying with the more experienced pilot does little to reduce the less experienced pilot's chance of an accident. Rather, it is the attitude displayed that is the key, that is, the humility to keep learning, the humbleness to know that one does not know. Kinda zen, maybe.
I also like Robert Nuckolls' take on some incidents. What might seem like an unavoidable equipment failure in fact can be turned from life-threatening to annoying incident by first, knowing and understanding your systems, and second, by designing the systems (in Bob realm, electrical systems) so they cannot cause a crisis.
Ultimately it's probably the same old line: the ones reading this thread aren't the ones that need to change their ways to reduce their chance of an accident.
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01-04-2010, 07:27 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,275
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Assuming no problem with AOPA, they have enough online courses to provide a basis for a safety program. Have people complete those, then have a forum where the main issues can be discussed.
In reality, my view is that the main issue is judgment. Know when to say no.
Beaucoup cases to show that, such as the plane that took off from the LOE fly in into a thunderstorm cell. Two fatalities that were 100% avoidable.
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01-04-2010, 07:30 PM
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fugio ergo sum
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Carlsbad, NM
Posts: 1,912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Lee
...Beaucoup cases to show that, such as the plane that took off from the LOE fly in into a thunderstorm cell. Two fatalities that were 100% avoidable.
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Just to clarify, for those that are not familiar with this accident. The airplane referred to was a factory airplane.
__________________
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM
RV-6 N441LP Flying
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01-04-2010, 08:16 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,275
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Good clarification Larry. The point was that the aircraft was not the problem and that may be the case most of the time. It is the pilot. Poor judgment and probably get home-itis
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