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  #31  
Old 12-27-2009, 06:59 PM
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Shockwave Shockwave is offline
 
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People are "ignorant" because there is no visibility. I took flying lessons at 14 and even went to school for aerospace engineering. If you would have asked me what experimental or homebuilt meant up until I found the EAA, I would have said ultralights.

You don't ever see commercials for anything related to general aviation. Not flying lessons, not Cessna, AOPA, EAA, not anything. There are commercials for BASF, who propose that you don't even buy anything from them. (If I can't buy something from them, why would they advertise?)

I also question young eagles. I suppose there might be a few tenths of a percent uptick in people interested in GA from it, in a few decades. I'd rather see something aimed at adults too.

If I were king I'd kill off LSA and 3rd class medicals. Then I'd open up all certified AC to modification by A&P's. Don't want that 40yr old battery, no problem. If I were king..

This what people think of when they think of Experimental Aviation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAXs3...eature=related
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Last edited by Shockwave : 12-27-2009 at 08:00 PM.
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  #32  
Old 12-27-2009, 07:33 PM
Bob Axsom Bob Axsom is offline
 
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Posts: 5,685
Default I guess you folks will have to do something different

These RVs are experimental and no two are alike - some are quite bad! I quess it is understandable that someone who has bought an RV and has no concept of what has gone into it would like to rationalize it as just like a certified airplane. "Experimental" is a badge of honor and if you want some milk toast goody group huggy sensation take up bowling or golf. This is dangerous as **** and if you don't recognize that you are more vulnerable to getting killed by it that those who do recognize it. I constantly experiment with my airplane and I certainly don't want some risk management regulatory responsibility assumed by the government to kill my freedom to do just that.

OK shoot me.

Bob Axsom
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  #33  
Old 12-27-2009, 07:53 PM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
There are two related topics here so hope I don?t confuse anyone. 1) the word experimental and how it sounds to others 2) how to increase participation in GA

Topic 1
Whenever I mention the word ?experimental? in association with, or describing aircraft, non-aircraft type people always make some remark about how I must be a daredevil or a crazy.

Now, I know this is nothing new. I have heard this sort of story before. But I am wondering if this is just bad marketing for our way of life? Is there a better way for us to introduce our interest to people not familiar with experimental aircraft?

Topic 2
My other worry is that I am considered a young pilot at most of the gatherings, and I am ?middle aged?. Where are all the 16-20yr olds? The only ones I know of have always had planes in their life. (father, mother, uncle, etc)

Why are airports disappearing? How do we increase interest? Is there some sort of soft introduction that we are not doing? (ex. Restaurant on field open to the public that has radio on each table. Or how about plane themed playgrounds on field?) This whole TSA thing and cordoning off the areas around airports is not helping the issue.

I know about young eagles and the civil air patrol, but what else are we doing?

Is there a better word than experimental (craftsmanship vs. mass production sort of thing)?

Are aircraft just too dam expensive to live on? ($100K LSA?s are not the answer)

Thoughts anyone???
Michael,

To address your concern about the classification "experimental" - it is not all that important.

Most of my non flying friends can not resist asking about it at a party. I sense that some are a little bored with golf and wish they had a broader view of life. Building and flying your own airplane is very special and to change the certification designation to something other than experimental would make it a little less special. It is an experimental effort, why not call it that?

You must have missed Oshkosh 2009. It was one of the most successful conventions in years. It was all about experimental aviation being celebrated by many aviators flying to the event, (well over 10,000 airplanes, about 1400 experimental) plus many thousands of non aviators in their motor homes, bikes, cars and trucks. The airport was jammed, the camp ground was jammed and there wasn't a motel room for miles. This segment of aviation is very much alive.

OK, so the effort is perhaps a bit more exclusive than 50 years ago when Cessna and Piper were cranking out airplanes by the dozens each month, all when the country had a 100 million fewer people and airport land was cheaper. Today the focus is more on what we do here, build our own and fly 'em from where ever we can. Air park communities are becoming a viable option.

Yes, it costs money to become a pilot and own an airplane. Relative to the economy, it has always been expensive. But people who want to fly, find a way to do it. There are a gazillion stories right here on this forum about how each person became what he is.

You mention $100,000 for a LSA as not being the answer. That isn't the answer but it does not have to cost 100 grand to build and fly a LSA airplane. Fisher Flying Products has 15 models ranging in kit price from $5200-$14,999. Hang an engine and one should be able to do it for less than 30 grand with some models.

It won't have 2 glass panels but it will fly.

I don't think it is all as gloomy as your topics A and B would indicate.
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  #34  
Old 12-27-2009, 07:57 PM
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apkp777 apkp777 is offline
 
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I am pretty sure the original thread was asking how we can better convey to the general public the concept of an experimental aircraft. Some people really do think you are gluing toothpicks and cray paper together and plan to jump off a bridge with it.

I think it's a fair question that was asked. I don't think it was asked as an effort to undermine the prestige of building your own aircraft.
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  #35  
Old 12-27-2009, 09:19 PM
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Garage Guy Garage Guy is offline
 
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Default Cost of flying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman CYYJ View Post
I don't flying is any more expensive than it was 40 years ago. It took 8 hours of work then to rent a plane and it still takes about that much work.
According to http://www.measuringworth.com/, in the 40 years from 1967 to 2007 the average nominal unskilled wage in the U.S. went up by a factor of about 6.4.

Looking at archived classified ads I can find online from 1967, FBO wet rental on a new Cessna 172 was about $12/hr.

If the cost of flying tracked unskilled wages, FBO wet rental on a new 172 in 2007 would be about $77/hr. In fact it's more like $120 to $140/hr.

So I would say that for normal working folks, private flying is significantly more expensive than it was 40 years ago... 70% or 80% more.

(In those same 40 years the consumer price index went up by a factor of about 6.2, so if you just look at that, flying looks relatively even more expensive.)

--Paul
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  #36  
Old 12-27-2009, 10:05 PM
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Mike D Mike D is offline
 
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Location: Houston, TX
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Default Thanks all!

Thanks everyone for your responses.
Tony is right about my intentions on asking the questions.

I went to Oshkosh this year and was amazed at the over 600K people. I was amazed when they had to rent the adjacent farms to house extra campers. The volunteers are great! The amount diversity is huge. Airventure is absolutely amazing!!! 2nd year and the wife loves it. But when I tell people I spent my week vacation at an air show, they say, ?WHAT?!?? ?Did your wife go?? and they turn to my wife and ask, ?Do you really want to spend your vacation like that??

I too find pride in owning an experimental. The reason I bought instead of building has to do with time, work schedule, and economics. I am a builder, I just haven?t built yet. But by owning an RV, I am learning what I will build and how I will build it.

I really don?t think the problem with GA is the cost. I know teenagers who spend as much fixing up their cars as it would cost to build and fly an RV. I think the problem is exposure, or the lack of it. And yes, this is dangerous stuff. But nowhere near as dangerous as illegal drag racing, drugs, or gang banging. I think the positives far outweigh the dangers. But this is slightly off topic. I am not asking how to save our kids through GA. That is a much bigger topic.

What I am asking is how do we market GA from a grass roots way better. I think young eagles is a huge help and I would never downplay the effort, but it is a limited time engagement. How can we make this better???

Adam, Great post!!!!!!!! Would love to know more. This is exactly what I was looking for. How were you introduced to GA if no one in your family was associated with it? For me, my grandfather was a pilot in WWII, and my uncles good friend, Pat, owned a Citabria that I got my first ride in. Experimental was the best fit for my DIY personality.

When the general public thinks GA or small plane, they think rich and exclusive. They think they don?t have the money and they are not invited. My questions are on how do we change that stereotype? I believe that stereotype will be the death of GA. I also believe the best thing GA has going for it is the ?experimental? market. I just feel we could be marketing GA better. I think we could be marketing the kit built market better. Where else can you have so many choices and opportunities to enter aviation at a variety of prices and diversified interests?

How cool is it to build and fly your own plane?? How much pride do you feel when you accomplish that? Now, How do we communicate this excitement to the rest of the world?

How/Where should I spend my very limited time/money?
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  #37  
Old 12-27-2009, 10:56 PM
wvshooter wvshooter is offline
 
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Airports are being turned into housing developments and industrial parks. Same deal with farm land. I think they call it urban sprawl.

Young people are too busy buying houses and raising kids to be involved in flying. There's no time and no money until the kids are gone.

Some people think you're crazy if you own a Harley. How much crazier do you have to be to own an airplane. Guess I can always console myself that I don't base jump. Now that is crazy.

With the financial demands of housing, autos, college, and retirement funding I'm surprised anyone can afford to fly. It's just not an option or desire for most people. Most are satisfied with a Harley or a boat.
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  #38  
Old 12-28-2009, 12:16 AM
Deems Davis Deems Davis is offline
 
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Location: Anthem, Az
Posts: 168
Default Why do we feel compelled to share the joy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
Thanks everyone for your responses.
.....................What I am asking is how do we market GA from a grass roots way better. I think young eagles is a huge help and I would never downplay the effort, but it is a limited time engagement. How can we make this better???..........

........... I also believe the best thing GA has going for it is the ?experimental? market. I just feel we could be marketing GA better. I think we could be marketing the kit built market better..............

.................How do we communicate this excitement to the rest of the world?

How/Where should I spend my very limited time/money?
Why do we feel compelled to share the joy that aviation brings to us?????

I ask this rhetorically, as I also frequently find myself evangelizing to the earthbound,the wonders of flight and the joys and satisfactions of, building, owning, maintaining a machine that became an airplane as the result of pursuing and realized a dream. More often than not, when I pause to take in oxygen, I get a glimpse of the persons face and realize that the shower of sparks sent off by my passionate pleading failed to ignite a fuse. There was a time I questioned, 'what shortcoming keeps me from unlocking in others the almost spiritual meanings that aviation holds for me'?
I'm retired, and when I can, I spend time at the airport, why? because the people that I talk to there 'get it'. They've all gone through the 'conversion' and the conversations that ensue, result in showers of sparks that nearly always generate heat.
I've come to believe and accept that most of the earthbound world just doesn't care. or perhaps said another way, their shower of sparks arises from other sources.
Not everyone will become a pilot, or build their own airplane. And for me that's OK. In fact, I take some satisfaction in knowing that. The satisfaction doesn't come from the small numbers or being a part of an exclusive fraternity, but it comes from knowing that those who share with me the meaning of aviation do so because it means more to them than a lot of other things in the world do. It means enough for them to seek out information, set a goal, put together a plan, sacrifice or forgo other pleasures and to finally accomplish a dream or goal.
I may be fooling myself, but I don't think that most of us who have arrived at this destination did so because of some exceptional marketing. But rather because it was something we sought and found.
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  #39  
Old 12-28-2009, 12:21 AM
JakeLewis22 JakeLewis22 is offline
 
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Location: Mission Viejo, CA
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Default Stop preaching to the choir

I think that the celebrities that have chaired the Young Eagles program have missed the point. Has anyone ever heard any of them mention the Young Eagles program "outside" of the aviation community? Maybe I just didn't hear it but did Harrison Ford ever go on Letterman, Leno or Entertainment Tonight and say "go to youngeagles.org for info on how your child can get a free ride in an airplane"?

About a month ago one of the members of a Los Angeles morning radio show spotted Harrison Ford at the airport. No one in the studio had any idea he was a pilot. Now he's taking part in AOPA's "GA Serves America" program. I know this because I have been getting fliers from the AOPA. Again, I'm sorry if I missed it but shouldn't they put adds in Time, Newsweek or Reader's Digest and save their money on printing and postage?

The EAA and AOPA keep preaching to the choir but we're not the ones that need to hear it.
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  #40  
Old 12-28-2009, 01:05 AM
Spindrift Spindrift is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
I also question young eagles. I suppose there might be a few tenths of a percent uptick in people interested in GA from it, in a few decades. I'd rather see something aimed at adults too.

This what people think of when they think of Experimental Aviation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAXs3...eature=related
I think Young Eagles does work, but to your point, it takes a few decades. I got a ride in a 172 at 10yrs old and wanted to fly ever since. An injury at the last minute prevented my planned Air Force Academy attendance, then life happened and it took until I was in my mid-thirties to finally have the financial stability to get my PPL. And the only way I'll own my own plane is building it with a partner who also doesn't have the funds to do it alone.

That said, I agree some effort should be made to market flying to people in their 20's and 30's. How much money is spent on skiing/snowboarding, atv's, snowmobiles, boats, etc. by people looking to get a "legal" high that doesn't come close to the satisfaction and adrenaline rush of a 1st solo? The only one in the industry that are talking about this is Icon Aircraft, who, by the way, already has 450 orders, 25% of which are from non-pilots.

On a different note, I just read "Wingwalker," about a family of aviation pioneers in Wisconsin. In 1919, it cost Roy Larson $500 for 10 hours of instruction. According to an online inflation calculator, that's about $6400 2008 dollars -- about what my 50+ or so hours in a 150 cost to get my PPL. Barnstormers in that era charged $5 ($64) for a 5 min ride. Maybe aviation isn't so much more expensive after all, its all in your perspective.
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