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  #11  
Old 11-04-2009, 10:53 AM
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dynonsupport dynonsupport is offline
 
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If you are looking at TT as a competitor to the Dynon equipment and don't want SynVis, then a D100/D180 is a much more direct competitor, and at 30% less than the price of the TT.

TT doesn't do a map or SynVis, just like the D180/D100. So a lot of the enhanced functionality of SkyView doesn't seem to be something you are thinking about. In this case, a D100 is a proven platform, with well over 5000 of them flying.

A big advantage to the Dynon equipment is that it shows true attitude, not VSI and turn rate. The TT EFIS is a flight path vector, not attitude. Take the TT EFIS, place it on a table on it's side, and 15 seconds later is shows you level, because you have no turn rate. The Dynon platform is based on true attitude, and works just like a traditional attitude indicator. As mentioned before, we have a magnetometer so we show magnetic heading, not just ground track, and we can use this data to do enhanced calculations like winds.

If you fly real IFR, backups are important, and you can put a D100/D180 in the plane, get full engine monitoring, total redundancy on the PFD, and a full AP for $7900 (including engine sensors). A single screen TT will cost you much more than that with no backups.
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  #12  
Old 11-04-2009, 12:42 PM
jeff beckley jeff beckley is offline
 
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True attitude..... What good does do to know what direction the nose of the plane is pointing if it is sinking? And who flys sideways for 15 min? The TT shows what the plane is doing. Direction of flight, climbing, desending in real time. You make it sound like they cut corners but to the contrary the design is outstanding. Again my question is about flying hard IFR. Would Dynons line up be concidered a stable and safe platform for that mission? Can the D100 or 180 comand the AP to fly coupled approaches? Where is the design focused. How stable is your AP? How much more money is needed to purchase the ARINC converters so it can get commands from external sources?look you have the potetial for great product. But there are other great products out there that do a better job than yours for different missions.
So stop with the "mines bigger than yours" game. You can't be the end all of efis's
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  #13  
Old 11-04-2009, 01:11 PM
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dynonsupport dynonsupport is offline
 
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Jeff,
People do need to know that the TruTrak EFIS displays are not attitude displays, and are different from every other attitude display made (ours and every other competitor). You may be okay with that, but not all people are. A TruTrak will show you level in slow flight even though the nose is 10 degrees up. There is a reason they believe they need to annunciate low airspeed, since you can be pulling back on the stick, holding "level" on the TruTrak, while the nose just gets higher and higher up and you eventually stall with no warning. In roll, it will show you banked while in a flat turn. Please note I said roll errors show up on the table in 15 seconds, not minutes.

It's good information, and is flyable, but it's not attitude. You have to fly it differently than you've been trained as an IFR pilot. If the market really does end up loving the TT method of flight path display, then you'll probably see a lot more of it, since it requires much less expensive sensors and calibrations to do.

To answer the direct questions, yes, we consider the Dynon system to be a highly proven platform that is more than appropriate for IFR, given appropriate backups (which is true for any platform. Single source attitude/airspeed/altitude/heading while in IMC is dangerous no matter what manufacturer you go with).

The D100/D180 can couple to the lateral part of a GPS or NAV approach. We do not have vertical coupling yet. The ARINC-429 converter is $650 if you plan to use an IFR legal GPS.
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  #14  
Old 11-04-2009, 02:33 PM
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akschu akschu is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Houston, Alaska
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff beckley View Post
True attitude..... What good does do to know what direction the nose of the plane is pointing if it is sinking? And who flys sideways for 15 min? The TT shows what the plane is doing. Direction of flight, climbing, desending in real time. You make it sound like they cut corners but to the contrary the design is outstanding. Again my question is about flying hard IFR.
The autopilot on the dynon platform doesn't do what the TT will in IFR conditions, and the dynon won't integrate with other autopilots (send GPS steering signals). Simply put, if you want vertical navigation and other high end autopilot features then you really want a TT.

I suggest looking at an AFS 3500 since it will do all of those things with a TT autopilot and it's got the simple clean display your looking for. Not to mention the arhs is the same as the certified crossbow.

Perhaps dynon will be a good ifr platform in the future, but right now their arinc 429 interface won't do what the AFS and GRT will do, and their autopilot won't do what a TT will do. That said, many fly ifr with dynon, so it works, it just isn't as feature rich as the competition.

I suppose it really comes down to budget.

schu
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  #15  
Old 11-04-2009, 03:33 PM
TrutrakTech TrutrakTech is offline
 
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Just as an FYI note, we are very open about the way our ADI and EFIS display "attitude". We have never tried to tell anyone that it is true attitude as we believe the way we do it gives a better situational awareness of what the aircraft is doing. We do offer users the option for indicating pitch attitude. When that is active, it moves the VSI to the right side of the display. We choose to show wings level when the aircraft is flying straight. Our slip indicator is very prominent at the top of the display for reference of a low wing or slip condition.
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Last edited by TrutrakTech : 11-05-2009 at 09:59 AM. Reason: Added extra info
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  #16  
Old 11-04-2009, 04:28 PM
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SMO SMO is offline
 
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Location: Salmon Arm, BC
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Default Using TT EFIS

When I saw the TT EFIS I knew that was the display I wanted. Reading about how it works (attitude, course), it makes perfect logical sense to me, and getting Jeff's (and others) feedback on actual usage is confirmation I made the right choice. Here is a representation of my Rocket panel, Vertical Power on the left (EIS display ++), 696 on the right, and TT EFIS IV in the middle with a 430W, SL30, PS8000B, and GTX330. Stein is currently putting together the order for the few items I don't already have.

My thoughts on redundancy - I have two navs and two coms, if the EFIS goes then I fly on the ADI and the 696, both of which have battery backup. I realize I lose the AP if the EFIS goes, although if it is just the screen the "AP Level" button will help. However this is a weakness in my setup that I will have to plan and practice for - gives me a reason to go flying .

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  #17  
Old 11-04-2009, 09:00 PM
jeff beckley jeff beckley is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynonsupport View Post
Jeff,
A TruTrak will show you level in slow flight even though the nose is 10 degrees up. There is a reason they believe they need to annunciate low airspeed, since you can be pulling back on the stick, holding "level" on the TruTrak, while the nose just gets higher and higher up and you eventually stall with no warning.
It is showing level because there is no up or down movement. The AI is designed to show changes in altitude not what attitude the nose is pointing. The AI first shows pitch change instantly... then trends toward altitude changes. Makes perfect sense once you fly behind one for more than a couple of min. Do not forget that the autopilot will not EVER allow the aircraft to slow to the point of stalling. Pull the power and the AP will pitch up to maintain alt but to a point that the airspeed drops to stall then the AP will pitch over to maintain flight. No other AP does that.
For the people that have bought Trutrak's ADI the EFIS displays the same way. I had the ADI along with a conventional AI and they mimicked each other exactly.
Take slow flight for example. Your nose is naturally pitched up. We both agree on that. With a conventional AI it shows a pitch of 10deg but how do you know if your losing altitude? Look at the VSI or altimeter right? With the TT in slow flight the AI shows level you know you are moving through the air with no loss of alt. If it shows below the horizon then you naturally know you are losing alt. In regards to stalling you know what airspeed the plane stalls at. I do not need an AI to tell me that the plane is going to stall.
TT just adds an additional feature to let you know when your air speed is low enough to stall. Your EFIS does that does it not? I hope you are not saying that the annunciation is for correcting for a poor design. That would be lame.
Both ways are very effective but I feel that the way TT does it along with the way they present the other flight data allows my mind to interpret that data instantly. Much Much faster than tapes or a single digital numeric number.
In the end the TT EFIS is designed to complement their excellent autopilot system. It is a first and foremost a flight director designed to assist or control the aircraft in all phases of the flight. I challenge anyone to fly behind one for an hour and not say "brilliant"
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  #18  
Old 11-05-2009, 03:07 AM
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RudiGreyling RudiGreyling is offline
 
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Guys please be civil,

us wannabe IFR guys are trying to learn and absorb as much as we can, the bickering wants me to run to another thread, but then I might miss some important info.

Kind Regards
Rudi
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