RV-10 IFR panels

[Paul Bonner]

well we're in the final throes of constructing the tail of our QB 10 kit and as we work, the topic of discussion to which we always return is the panel.

we've settled on going IFR . after all, if you're going to build a plane of this caliber, why not go full up?

now we are playing with epanel builder and coming up with different layouts.

we like the dynon systems but are struggling a bit with interpretting the rules regarding the instrumentation required for IFR cert in an experimental plane. it's that redundancy thing , don'tcha know? do dynon qualify are instruments for IFR flight? if so, what's the minimum steam gauge requiremnt for the neccessary level of redundancy?

we're also looking hard at what's the best way to spend the money required to go IFR.

we feel garmin is the company to go with and that the garmin 430 is a good unit but marketplace wise is already old hat.

and while we fly our 6 with a 196 and love it's simplicity of use, we feel a snap in " panel mount" 296/396, while probably not legal for IFR use, is terribly economical but would be kinda cheesey in a 10. but then we choke on thinking about the expense of putting in a 530.

and once we get the rules for IFR cert figured out and the money questions are answered, it's imperitive that the panel be highly functional and esthetically pleasing.!

who knows what about this better than fellow builders who might be farther down the road than we? so whattyall think?

[aadamson]

There are *NO* requirements for redundancy. In fact, all you have to do is meet the required equipment part of the rules. That has been hashed thru a million times, both here and on the EAA website so I won't recount it.

*if* you want to put a panel together with just a Dynon, you can fly it under IFR rules. Would I suggest you fly it in *hard* IFR, no and you'll probably want to read about some of the newer EFIS systems and their "Fast erect" challenges. But beyond that, you can do anything you like.

Now, if you want to be safe, and be able to deal with a failure. I would suggest that if you are going to do an EFIS, that you also put in either 2" or 3" version of an Airspeed indicator, a Attitude indicator (the trutack solid state version or the Sporty's electic AI work just fine), and and altimeter.

You don't need TSO'd instruments, so all you really have to do is come up with what meets the required instrument rules and what backup you'd want. Now I would also suggest that you check with your DAR early on so make sure it will meet his requirements. There are obviously some old fashioned ones that have their own requirements even tho they technically aren't required by rule or regulation.

[plaurence]

[quote=Paul Bonner]well we're in the final throes of constructing the tail of our QB 10 kit and as we work, the topic of discussion to which we always return is the panel.

we've settled on going IFR . after all, if you're going to build a plane of this caliber, why not go full up?

now we are playing with epanel builder and coming up with different layouts.

we like the dynon systems but are struggling a bit with interpretting the rules regarding the instrumentation required for IFR cert in an experimental plane. it's that redundancy thing , don'tcha know? do dynon qualify are instruments for IFR flight? if so, what's the minimum steam gauge requiremnt for the neccessary level of redundancy?

Here are the regs
Federal Aviation Regulation




Part 91 GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES

Subpart C--Equipment, Instrument, and Certificate Requirements





Sec. 91.205

Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.

(a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the
instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items of equipment are in operable condition.
(b) Visual-flight rules (day). For VFR flight during the day, the following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Airspeed indicator.
(2) Altimeter.
(3) Magnetic direction indicator.
(4) Tachometer for each engine.
(5) Oil pressure gauge for each engine using pressure system.
(6) Temperature gauge for each liquid-cooled engine.
(7) Oil temperature gauge for each air-cooled engine.
(8) Manifold pressure gauge for each altitude engine.
(9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.
(10) Landing gear position indicator, if the aircraft has a retractable landing gear.
(11) For small civil airplanes certificated after March 11, 1996, in accordance with part 23 of this chapter, an approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operation of the aircraft may continue to a
location where repairs or replacement can be made.
[ (12) If the aircraft is operated for hire over water and beyond power-off gliding distance from shore, approved flotation gear readily available to each occupant and, unless the aircraft is operating under part 121 of this subchapter, at least one pyrotechnic signaling device. As used in this section, "shore" means that area of the land adjacent to the water which is above the high water mark and excludes land areas which are intermittently under water.]
(13) An approved safety belt with an approved metal-to-metal latching device for each occupant 2 years of age or older.
(14) For small civil airplanes manufactured after July 18, 1978, an approved shoulder harness for each front seat. The shoulder harness must be designed to protect the occupant from serious head injury when the occupant experiences the ultimate inertia forces specified in Sec. 23.561(b)(2) of this chapter. Each shoulder harness installed at a flight crewmember station
must permit the crewmember, when seated and with the safety belt and shoulder harness fastened, to perform all functions necessary for flight operations. For purposes of this paragraph--
(i) The date of manufacture of an airplane is the date the inspection acceptance records reflect that the airplane is complete and meets the FAA-approved type design data; and
(ii) A front seat is a seat located at a flight crewmember station or any seat located alongside such a seat.
(15) An emergency locator transmitter, if required by Sec. 91.207.
(16) For normal, utility, and acrobatic category airplanes with a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of 9 or less, manufactured after December 12, 1986, a shoulder harness for--
(i) Each front seat that meets the requirements of Sec. 23.785 (g) and (h) of this chapter in effect on December 12, 1985;
(ii) Each additional seat that meets the requirements of Sec. 23.785(g) of this chapter in effect on December 12, 1985.
(17) For rotorcraft manufactured after September 16, 1992, a shoulder harness for each seat that meets the requirements of Sec. 27.2 or Sec. 29.2 of this chapter in effect on September 16, 1991.
(c) Visual flight rules (night). For VFR flight at night, the following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section.
(2) Approved position lights.
(3) An approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system on all U.S.-registered civil aircraft. Anticollision light systems initially installed after August 11, 1971, on aircraft for which a type certificate was issued or applied for before August 11, 1971, must at least meet the
anticollision light standards of part 23, 25, 27, or 29 of this chapter, as applicable, that were in effect on August 10, 1971, except that the color may be either aviation red or aviation white. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operations with the aircraft may be
continued to a stop where repairs or replacement can be made.
(4) If the aircraft is operated for hire, one electric landing light.
(5) An adequate source of electrical energy for all installed electrical and radio equipment.
(6) One spare set of fuses, or three spare fuses of each kind required, that are accessible to the pilot in flight.
(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
(2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used.
(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:
(i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 360 degrees of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with the instrument requirements prescribed in Sec. 121.305(j) of this chapter; and
(ii) Rotorcraft with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of ?80 degrees of pitch and ?120 degrees of roll and installed in accordance with Sec. 29.1303(g) of this chapter.
(4) Slip-skid indicator.
(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.
(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.
(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.
(8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).
(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).
(e) Flight at and above 24,000 ft. MSL (FL 240). If VOR navigational equipment is required under paragraph (d)(2) of this section, no person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft within the 50 states and the District of Columbia at or above FL 240 unless that aircraft is equipped with approved distance measuring equipment (DME). When DME required by this paragraph fails at and above FL 240, the pilot in command of the aircraft shall notify ATC immediately, and then may continue operations at and above FL 240 to the next airport of intended landing at which repairs or replacement of the equipment can be made.
(f) Category II operations. The requirements for Category II operations are the instruments and equipment specified in--
(1) Paragraph (d) of this section; and
(2) Appendix A to this part.
(g) Category III operations. The instruments and equipment required for Category III operations are specified in paragraph (d) of this section.
(h) Exclusions. Paragraphs (f) and (g) of this section do not apply to operations conducted by a holder of a certificate issued under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter.


Peter

[w1curtis]

Originally Posted by Paul Bonner

we feel garmin is the company to go with and that the garmin 430 is a good unit but marketplace wise is already old hat.

and while we fly our 6 with a 196 and love it's simplicity of use, we feel a snap in " panel mount" 296/396, while probably not legal for IFR use, is terribly economical but would be kinda cheesey in a 10. but then we choke on thinking about the expense of putting in a 530.

Technology wise, there is not that much difference between a 430 and a 530 other than the screen size and some additional I/O ports. As old as the 430/530 is however, its current lack of WAAS are their only shortcoming. For me it is still at the top of my list of GPS and what my panel is designed around. The nice thing about the Garmin handheld is that you can crossfeed data from a Garmin panel mount to them. For this reason, a handheld is, and will continue to be a standard part of my panel.

I would sugges you select any IFR certified panel mount GPS (the handheld alone would not suffice) and then also go with your familiar handheld, tied to it. There are a number of ways to make them look nice in the panel.

This is the plan for my panel.

[Jim Sinkbeil]

My suggestion would be to talk to Stein @ Steinair. He sees it all and will offer good ,RELIABLE, advice. We chose Chelton with a SL-30.
Jim #290 slow build, wings painted yesterday, fuselage on Mon. Flying RV-7A.

[Mike S]

You say you are still working onthe tail------------as am I, and thinking about your panel-------again, as am I.

The best advice I have recieved about the panel setup is--WAIT!!

Things change so fast in the electronics world that what looks good today is old hat tomorrow.

It is O.K. to start planning and making a "wish list" etc, and I am limiting my list to general terms---I want a GPS, I want a stereo/intercom, I want a EFIS, etc., and I will fill in the specific brand/model later, but I would not spent any $$ for big ticket items until you really need to.

Been there, done that on a prior project.

Good luck, Mike S

[w1curtis]

Originally Posted by Jim Sinkbeil

My suggestion would be to talk to Stein @ Steinair. He sees it all and will offer good ,RELIABLE, advice. We chose Chelton with a SL-30.
Jim #290 slow build, wings painted yesterday, fuselage on Mon. Flying RV-7A.

Jim,

From your emphasis of the word RELIABLE above, this seems to imply that the advice given by the above posters, is NOT RELIABLE. Can you clarify?

Also, what does a Chelton and an SL-30 have to do with an IFR GPS? The original question was for an IFR legal GPS, the SL-30 is a VHF NAV/COM and the (optional?) GPS in the Chelton is not TSO?d.

[aadamson]

The Chelton *includes* a GPS, but it is *not* certified. However, they did offer an *option* to a gps from freeflight systems. It, prior to the GNX-480 being approved, was the only other WAAS gps that was certified and approved.

[w1curtis]

Originally Posted by Mike S

You say you are still working onthe tail------------as am I, and thinking about your panel-------again, as am I.

The best advice I have recieved about the panel setup is--WAIT!!

Things change so fast in the electronics world that what looks good today is old hat tomorrow.

It is O.K. to start planning and making a "wish list" etc, and I am limiting my list to general terms---I want a GPS, I want a stereo/intercom, I want a EFIS, etc., and I will fill in the specific brand/model later, but I would not spent any $$ for big ticket items until you really need to.

Been there, done that on a prior project.

Good luck, Mike S

This is great and RELIABLE advice Mike. Like most builders I started to think about their panel and avionics early on, however I do not plan on buying ANY avionics until all the major airframe components are done. I'll still put enough thought in the panel however and it has been through a few iterations, but it is best to wait and see.

Imagine sitting on a hunk of expensive avionics while building and then get something like this?

[aadamson]

Imagine sitting on a hunk of expensive avionics while building and then get something like this?

Ah, wait one second there captain...

As evidenced by the recent recall on the 400 series AHRS. D2A and the Chelton EFIS system have take most of the risk away in thinking ahead. From what I'm hearing, D2A will be offering a *free* swap out to their existing customers to solve the Xbow AHRS problem. With the cost of some of these components, that's no small deal.

I bought my Chelton early, before the plane was done, taking advantage of their OSH special last fall with a free TruTrak. Turns out this has been an excellent decision given the support they continue to provide their customers...

One of the huge advantages, IMHO, of the Chelton system is the ability for it to be upgraded and not obsoleted. Course, it doesn't hurt that it's based upon certified code either

No I don't work for D2A, but am an extremely happy customer!