VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > Main > RV General Discussion/News
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-16-2009, 07:08 AM
Chip Chip is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 28
Default Canopy jettison

Flying around these lovely WV hills this summer caused me to consider off-airport landing options. There are plenty of open fields that ought to be available in case of need for an immediate landing, but what seems to be a pretty smooth looking piece of grass from a couple of thousand feet AGL, may not be so smooth on landing. Which raised a thought that if the RV flips over (an RV-6, with a pop-up, in this case), wouldn't you be a lot better off without the canopy trapping you in the airplane?

That consideration, of course, leads to the question of what happens when you jettison a pop-up? Is it going to clear the cockpit area as it goes, and not take your head with it? What kind of clearance likelihood on the vertical fin?

As this particular RV-6 has the pop-up with lift struts, what kind of separation complications would be expected...or, if we're dealing with too many unknowns, are you better off leaving the canopy in place, and hoping for the best?

I doubt there's a whole lot of info on this issue, but, if any data is out there, I'd sure appreciate hearing it.

Regards to all,

Chip Sieglinger

Last edited by Chip : 08-16-2009 at 08:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-16-2009, 07:20 AM
Mel's Avatar
Mel Mel is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
Default

The lift struts would most likely cause the canopy to "flail" around and probably injure you before braking away. That's why I don't like them. With the original canopy hold-up, nothing is attached when the canopy is closed.
Unless you are leaving the airplane in flight, I would prefer to have the canopy intact during landing for protection from FOD. Imagine sliding inverted without the canopy.
Just my opinion and worth what you paid for it!
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-16-2009, 08:26 AM
airguy's Avatar
airguy airguy is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Garden City, Tx
Posts: 5,145
Default

And you've also got the possibility (not a small one either) of damaging the tail as it departs, perhaps turning your dead-engine glider into an uncontrollable aircraft. To my way of thinking, you only jettison the canopy if you're ready to bail over the side - and once you jettison, you are committed.
__________________
Greg Niehues - SEL, IFR, Repairman Cert.
Garden City, TX VAF 2020 dues paid
N16GN flying 700 hrs and counting; IO360, SDS, WWRV200, Dynon HDX, 430W
Built an off-plan RV9A with too much fuel and too much HP. Should drop dead any minute now.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-16-2009, 08:33 AM
Chip Chip is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 28
Default

Good thoughts, Mel & Greg. Not sure about the FOD angle...I expect the airplane is pretty much done moving if the tail goes over the nose. The idea of possibly being stuck in the cockpit with a fuel-fed fire potential causes me more than a little concern, and that canopy could be really tough to try to get by if the airplane was on its back. However, the idea of the canopy flailing around while it decides which lift strut to tear out first, definitely would incline me to lay very low if I tried tossing the canopy in flight. I can see it coming back at you and taking your head with it.

From what I can see, there is no data on pop-up canopy separation on the RVs. It seems we can only speculate. You gents have pretty much the same thoughts I do, though. Probably better to keep it on the airplane unless you're going over the side. Not having a parachute, that idea isn't too appealing either.

Chip
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-16-2009, 05:45 PM
pierre smith's Avatar
pierre smith pierre smith is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Louisville, Ga
Posts: 7,840
Default Hi Chip....

....the only recorded bailout is from an RV-8 that was on fire a few years ago. The guy did manage to open the canopy and jump to his death. Nobody has yet proven that the canopy in -6's and -7's is indeed openable in flight, so getting out is not yet ascertained, meaning that parachutes may well be only a "feel-good" situation and may in fact be useless if you can't jump.

Carry a big axe or other canopy breaking tool in case you end up in an upside-down and trapped situation and remember to turn off the gas on your way down. Don't cringe too much reading this, but this is real world stuff!

Regards,
__________________
Pierre Smith
RV-10, 510 TT
RV6A (Sojourner) 180 HP, Catto 3 Bl (502Hrs), gone...and already missed
Air Tractor AT 502B PT 6-15 Sold
Air Tractor 402 PT-6-20 Sold
EAA Flight Advisor/CFI/Tech Counselor
Louisville, Ga

It's never skill or craftsmanship that completes airplanes, it's the will to do so,
Patrick Kenny, EAA 275132


Dues gladly paid!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-16-2009, 07:48 PM
Vern's Avatar
Vern Vern is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Peachtree City, Ga
Posts: 1,040
Default Repeating post: escaping when upside down/canopy jettison need

Frank Eldridge (deceased) had this happen to him and wrote and spoke about his being thrown into the baggage area of his 6A. He was upside down with the plane partially in a wet area. He pulled his 5-6" pocket knife out and chipped out a large enough area on the rear baggage area to crawl out of the plane. Later I crawled back in that hole to recover some personal items for him. His only injury in the accident was a cut on his head from being cut by the plexiglass.

His best advice, some of which you will read in the links I added in the tribute I wrote a few weeks ago under the forum 'RV Friends Who Have Passed On' suggested:
1) Buy and wear the best seat belt/shoulder harnesses you can afford
2) Always carry a sharp knife on your person to use to break the canopy out.

I was on-scene within moments of Frank's accident. I helped recover the airplane and helped in the NTSB investigation. Frank's RV was kept in my hanger.I am very familiar with this accident and the excellent protection the RV-6A design provided.

So, with this experience as a background, I have a canopy breaker tool from an F-4 mounted on the back side of my 6A flap motor mount. I have a strong folding hunting knife in a side pocket. I installed Hooker harnesses along with a strong crotch strap. I used removeable 'gear' pins to hold my slider canopy on the front canopy mounts.

From one of Frank's articles:
--> RV-List message posted by: "Frank Eldridge" <eldridge@legis.state.ga.us>

January 1, 2003, I had a forced landing in a RV6A. After a ground roll of about
20 feet in a swampy area the plane ended up on its back. I found myself in
the baggage compartment unhurt. I had always thought that I could kick plexiglass
in the canopy out, but I could not. I always carry a pocket knife with a three
inch locking blade and I was able to take that knife and break a hole in
the canopy to get out. The only blood in the airplane was where I cut my hands
on the plexiglass breaking a larger hole in order to extract myself. I strongly
recommend to all my RV friends that they carry a knife like mine in their
pocket because in my case I could not have got to a tool in the cockpit of the
airplane. I have followed RV accidents very closely since mine, and a large
number wind up on their back. So, please get a knife and keep it in your pocket
when flying an RV. There is a story about my accident posted on Doug Reeves
Van's Air Force Web page. Here is the link to my particular article:

http://www.vansairforce.net/articles/FrankEldridge0.pdf

Best of luck,

Frank
__________________
Vern Darley
Awarded FAA "The Wright Brothers 'Master Pilot' Award"- for 50 years safe flying

RV-6A N680V / RV-10QB N353RV
Luscombe 8E N2423K 50+years
Hatz Biplane N2423Z soon to be birthed
Falcon RV Squadron Founder
KFFC Hanger D-30
Peachtree City, Ga
770 310-7169
EAA Technical Counselor #5142
EAA Flight Advisor #486336
ATP/CFI/A&P/DAR
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-17-2009, 02:18 AM
TomVal's Avatar
TomVal TomVal is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SC & CA
Posts: 907
Default Escaping While Trapped Upside Down

I presently carry a mulitpurpose cutting tool (I am having a senior moment and can't think of the name of the darn tool). When not flying, I set it on the glareshield so I don't forget it. The tool comes with a belt holder carrying case. When flying, I attach the case to my belt. This way, the tool would always be within my reach assuming I survived the crash.

The potential problem with any of these manual escape tools is that your ability to gain any leverage to use them effectively may be in doubt...particularly if you are injured and/or hanging upside down in your straps.

A small, portable, power tool such a dremel with a cutting disk may be a viable option.

Regards,
__________________
Tom Valenzia
RV8 (Sold)
RV12 Jabiru 2200 Powered (Sold)
Dues contributor since 2007

Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself...Anonymous
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-17-2009, 06:37 AM
Mel's Avatar
Mel Mel is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAGO View Post
A small, portable, power tool such a dremel with a cutting disk may be a viable option.
The only warning here would be; Don't use a power tool if you smell fuel. Any small spark generated by a power tool will not fare well with fuel fumes.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-17-2009, 01:17 PM
TomVal's Avatar
TomVal TomVal is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SC & CA
Posts: 907
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
The only warning here would be; Don't use a power tool if you smell fuel. Any small spark generated by a power tool will not fare well with fuel fumes.
Good point Mel. What we need is a talented RV builder to design and market a tool that would meet our needs. I'm too dumb and forgetful to take on such a task.

Regards,
__________________
Tom Valenzia
RV8 (Sold)
RV12 Jabiru 2200 Powered (Sold)
Dues contributor since 2007

Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself...Anonymous
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-17-2009, 01:49 PM
xavierm xavierm is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 464
Default Gerber

I keep a gerber LMF II within reach for breaking plexi or cutting through aluminum. Hopefully I will never have to use it.
__________________
_____________
Xavier
RV-7 build in progress
www.theaviatorx.com
"Genius is persistence in disguise"

Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:37 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.