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  #21  
Old 06-28-2006, 11:58 AM
Joey Joey is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 64
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amed
I think the key issue here is if you were under supervision of an A&P.
This keeps coming up, and I just don't understand why. There is no such requirement. I can't even find a hint of such a requirement, but I might have missed it and would appreciate if someone would point it out. I suspect it comes from certified aircraft, where you have to be supervised even if you don't intend to log the time towards your A&P.
Quote:
It has been my experience however, that EVERYTHING is subjective and it all depends on the FAA Inspector giving you your tickets.
I can certainly agree with this, as the Inspector's handbook states that "Experience gained from ... work on an experimental amateur-built aircraft will be evaluated on its own merits to determine whether it fulfills the experience requirements." Building an RV-10 and helping on a few others might be enough for one FSDO, yet get you nowhere close with another.
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  #22  
Old 06-29-2006, 02:17 AM
freegespeed freegespeed is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Diego, ca
Posts: 62
Default part the way through A&P school

I own an RV6A and have a totally non-aviation career, but for my own interest I have been taking A&P classes at a local community collage here in San Diego.

The point of this reply is to give my perspective on how much work is involved to get through this A&P program. It's over 1900 hours total not including homework and studying for tests, of which I have only about 400 hours done, whew! It takes 40 to 60 hours to get a private pilot licence, so you can see it's an exponential difference in time between those two endeavors.

I do think building an RV should count for maybe half the time to qualify, but I doubt many guys ever use it.

I'm not sure the pure experience guys get enough of the theory side of A&P training. There are plenty of twenty year military guys with me in the Miramar A&P program and they all say that their A&P training has been more intense then their military avaition mechanics training was. Although those "helo" guys are very sharp on helo related things.

While I do think the A&P ticket is license to learn, from what I've seen, newly minted A&P's are ready for most general aviation tasks within weeks of getting out in the real world. I think some guys feel the a need to impress about their many years of experience, but when it comes down to actual work, its just the same old inspection, or oil change from last month.

Cheers.
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Clark Friedgen
RV6A "owner,
not a builder yet"
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  #23  
Old 06-29-2006, 10:33 PM
amed amed is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Park City, UT
Posts: 30
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Hi Clark, It seems that you are going to one of the better A&P schools out there. This is good to hear! It's good that you are learning a lot! However, come back and talk to me after you have worked for a month at your local FBO....
Thanks everyone for the insightful comments! This is a GREAT WEBSITE!!!!
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  #24  
Old 06-29-2006, 10:34 PM
amed amed is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Park City, UT
Posts: 30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by william weesner
i see your point, but as i said before that applies in all aspects of services.
people are often to quick to trust and will assume the world but when they get burrned once they quickly learn. some of the a&p's you warn about i blieve is why dan built his own plane.
AMEN BROTHER!!!
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  #25  
Old 06-30-2006, 03:23 PM
freegespeed freegespeed is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Diego, ca
Posts: 62
Default I knew I would hear from the working A&P's after my comments

This all in good fun and serious at the same time. The work in the real world is very demanding I'm sure( I have friends who work as A&P's in the airlines and in G.A.), so my lack of actual experience other then my own plane is certainly a weak point in my posting.

I think one of the thread entries here mentioned the difference between the community collage programs and the private fast track ones, which may be worth noting. My program has an AA degree component in it, and a very strict time documentation requirement in it as well.

Anyway I think honesty and integrity are the difference between a good mechanic, and a good mechanic who doesn't charge you an arm and a leg for minor work.

Well I think I'll go cut my self with safety wire again, cheers
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RV6A "owner,
not a builder yet"
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  #26  
Old 07-13-2006, 11:36 AM
AV8ORJWC AV8ORJWC is offline
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Lake Oswego, OR
Posts: 2
Angry A & P

Most of my last thirty +years has been on the Operations side of flying. Served 23 years as a Pilot Examiner, Chief Pilot for a 141 training school and Flight Instructor. Worked many of those years doing maintenance "under supervision".

I thought naively that I could convert those years to an FAA acceptable signoff for A & P examination. Since my passion was composite planes I spent some time in that area. Then convincing my wife of the value of my taking a two year sabbatical from work, I began selective Part 147 classes to supplement my practical experience. Low and behold - three years later, it was necessary to complete every single class required by the 147 school to get their coveted diploma. Couldn't sell them any of my practical experience.

Over those thirty years, I did not follow a structured plan to obtain official A&P certificated letters of experience in each of the FAA required fields of study. Many of those ole guys had died or retired. Without a DOD file proving military competance, all thirty years was just playful activity. My FSDO does not acknowledge kit built operations unless under the eye and written endorsement of an A & P. I found the schooling to be invaluable. My passion to build unwaivering and therefore the next logical step was to use the 147 training and go to work for a major airline doing Heavy Check maintenance.

All of the training was of value: field, college, OJT at the airlines and the incredible amount of classroom training paid by said employer. I am ready to stack up my experience with any homebuilder and yet know that everyday I learn something new and valuable from a wide range of contributors. The greatest tragedy was not getting those signatures years ago or thinking that building a kit would equate to a graduation certificate from a 147 school.

John - KUAO ($00.02)
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  #27  
Old 06-26-2009, 07:49 PM
mikemolzahn mikemolzahn is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sherman, Tx
Posts: 1
Default The truth about A&P Mechanic

While I was attending Spartan College of Aeronautics and Technology, my basic mechanics instructor told me "The FAA lets the military do what ever they want because their aircraft are armed".

I am a retired USAF Turboprop and Turboshaft Prowerplant Mechanic that worked on C-130 series aircraft and MH-53J/M series Helicopters. When I retired I elected to attend Spartan College to as some of you have pointed out "learn the test", but I tend to disagree. Because coming from the turboprop/turboshaft world and not being your run of the mill car guy, I was at a disadvantage when it came to the FAA tests. Plus even though I was cross-utilized in crewchief jobs and carried aircraft battle damage repair technician and assessor qualifications the FSDO determined I wasn't eligible for my airframe ticket. So off to college I went. The funny part about when I got to prop class I found my props on my C-130's worked a whole lot different that the ones on smaller aircraft, it was like Hamilton Standard relearned to do things when the C-130 came along.

I had a blast in school and learned a lot of things, and wouldn't have traded it for anything.

Mike
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  #28  
Old 06-27-2009, 06:58 AM
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N395V N395V is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Mendon South Carolina
Posts: 1,391
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?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????

Quote:
Unlike other posters, I dont mind taking questions
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  #29  
Old 06-27-2009, 09:44 AM
Russ McCutcheon's Avatar
Russ McCutcheon Russ McCutcheon is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, WA USA
Posts: 908
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No offence to anyone but in my experience A&Ps are like auto mechanics, most of them don?t know what there doing and are more likely to cause problems then solve them, I have run across two that where very good and also cool with me hanging out/helping. I don?t trust any of them, not even the good ones, when I need one I keep an eye on them and what there doing, I seldom need one.

I am talking about the A&Ps working at FBOs and or free lance who might come to your hanger to work, I suspect there better in the airline industry!
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  #30  
Old 06-27-2009, 02:59 PM
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dhammer dhammer is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Keller, TX
Posts: 151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ McCutcheon View Post

I am talking about the A&Ps working at FBOs and or free lance who might come to your hanger to work, I suspect there better in the airline industry!
The little known fact is most airline mechanics are not A&P's. Just like most military mechanics, they are trained well to do a very narrow task and don't know diddly about anything else on the aircraft. It has been my experience that the best mechanics in the airlines are the line maintenance guys that fix them on the gate. They have to troubleshoot under pressure and that is what takes real skill. That being said, they have a giant support structure to help them when they can't figure it out themselves.

The same goes for FBO or repair station mechanics. All their work is signed off under their repair station certificate, so none of them need an A&P and most of them in the major service centers do not have one.

Far and away the brightest and best work in corporate aviation. They are generally very well trained on the whole aircraft and don't have a giant support structure to answer any questions. A guy that goes to remote areas as a Flight Mechanic with the aircraft has to be able to troubleshoot avionics, engines, APU's, hydraulics, etc. etc., or the airplane is stuck there. It has been my experience that there are very few airline mechanics that could do the same without their company to call on. Airliners are designed to be mechanically simple and easy to fly and fix for a reason.

As part of my business, we place personnel in flight departments. Pilots are a dime a dozen, but good technicians are hard to find. Few are going into the field as our kids are being raised to go to college, not to turn wrenches. How many kids today grow up working on their own car?

The better ones we place command salaries starting well over $100k. That's why you don't find the best and brightest working on small aircraft. The FBO's can't afford them, don't want to spend the money to train them, and the small airplane owner doesn't want to pay for them. For a guy like me that has spent the last 40 years either fixing or flying them, it a sad state of affairs.

Don
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