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  #1  
Old 02-06-2006, 02:27 PM
mcsteatlh mcsteatlh is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kingwood
Posts: 80
Default 10 vs Mooney ???

Has the question been posted the RV-10 vs Mooney question?

I'm considering buying a 15 year old Mooney but I do desire to own and fly a Vans.

The mission is husband and wife, 10 and 7 year old, Houston to Midland, San Antonio, or Dallas and of course, some X/C

McStealth
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  #2  
Old 02-06-2006, 02:37 PM
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Captain_John Captain_John is offline
 
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Default

One thing I found out in building my -7 is in order to finish, you must first start.

How much time ya got?

Do you want to build or fly?

I can't own and build at the same time. I am mooching planes at every turn and hope to eventually have an RV when the time comes that it is done.

CJ
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  #3  
Old 02-06-2006, 06:27 PM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
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Default Wow good question

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsteatlh
Has the question been posted the RV-10 vs Mooney question?

I'm considering buying a 15 year old Mooney but I do desire to own and fly a Vans.

The mission is husband and wife, 10 and 7 year old, Houston to Midland, San Antonio, or Dallas and of course, some X/C

McStealth
We all can go on with the joy of building and so on. We can talk about the handling of a RV (flown -3,-4,-6 but never a -10). When I was a very active CFI I flew a few Mooney's, 201 and 231. I love them. I am not a big wide guy but it is a little plane cockpit wise, but very functional and sufficient. If you compare the numbers between an (I)O-540 RV-10 and a Mooney (180, 200 hp) it compares very well.

Moony M20J (RV-10 in brackets)
Horsepower: 200.0 (260.0 HP)
Top Speed: 175 kts (208 mph/180 kts)
Cruise Speed: 170 kts (197 mph/ 171 kts)
Stall Speed (dirty): 53 kts (63 mph / 46 kts)
Takeoff Landing
Ground Roll: 880 ft (500 ft)
Over 50 ft obstacle: 1550 ft (not given)
Rate Of Climb: 1030 fpm (1450 fpm)
Ceiling: 18800 ft (20,000 ft)
Gross Weight: 2740 lbs (2700 lbs)
Empty Weight: 1671 lbs (1600 lbs)
Fuel Capacity: 64.00 gal (?)
Range: 690 nm (825 sm / 717 nm)


Keep in mind that we are comparing 260 hp against 200 hp
Cost of a used M20J is about $60,000 to $120,000 for a nice one
Cost to build a RV-10 $??,??? but lest assume at least $120,000
Consider and older Mooney with 180 hp with purchase of $40-$60k.
With such short flights may be a C172/C182. (I am a big Mooney fan though)

Obviously the cost of annuals with the retract and slave to AI for sign off is going to be more than the RV-10.

You can go out and buy a Mooney today, a RV-10 could be a year to never. By the time you finish the kids may be out of the house and you should be building a two seat-er? It sounds like you have a need NOW?

I don't know what your time and ratings are, but a Mooney with retract is going to be expensive to insure if you are low time (total/retract/Mooney) and don't have an Inst. rating. Check it out. As a CFI I flew with many of club member on trips to get their experience in type/retract up to make the insurance company comfortable. I love the Mooney, they go, nice on gas and handle well. Visability is just OK.

It is an excellent question because the RV-10 is in direct competition with the Mooney, Older Bonanza and Comanche (beautiful wing). The 6 banger Bonanza and the Comanche 250 (6 banger models) can be bargains on the used market. The Mooney and Comanche of course are also available in 4-banger models. Now are talking about older panels and TLC to keep them going. There is no absolute answer, but I will give you my gut feel.

If you are getting a good deal and never owned a plane before I think the Mooney is a great option. You can always sell it. Planes retain value. In the mean time get the tail kit and start on it. Obviously owning a plane will take time and money away from a RV-10 project. The other option if your life style permits is build a RV-10 quickly, starting with a QB kit. However have you built a plane before. Be realistic you need 1500-2000 hours of time. With the family when will you find time, but many have done it. SO what if it takes 2-3-4 years, but does it matter to you? Good Luck with the decision. George

Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 02-07-2006 at 02:16 AM.
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  #4  
Old 02-06-2006, 07:40 PM
mcsteatlh mcsteatlh is offline
 
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Default Ask, and ye shall receive.

George, thanks. Very insightful and honest. Yes, a 'J' model 200 horse power in the $100,000 range is what I'm looking at. Yes I'm low time. Yes I'm building hours in a 172. Yes the range of my mission is not all that far considering...

No one has built and sold a 10 before I'm assuming, so the market hasn't been established. Pure speculation but I bet someone somewhere will be willing to put out big bucks for a turn key one. Big bucks compared to aqusition and completion buy the builder of course.

Thought about putting this question on the main board but George pretty much put it on the line.

Thanks again.

McStealth
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  #5  
Old 02-06-2006, 09:16 PM
Alex Alex is offline
 
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Location: northern Virginia (DC area)
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsteatlh
The mission is husband and wife, 10 and 7 year old
My goodness! Y'all get married young in Texas!
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  #6  
Old 02-06-2006, 11:13 PM
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kevinh kevinh is offline
 
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Location: San Mateo, CA
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
My goodness! Y'all get married young in Texas!
Wow - funniest post of the day.
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  #7  
Old 02-07-2006, 02:37 AM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
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Default Crazy money

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsteatlh
No one has built and sold a 10 before I'm assuming, so the market hasn't been established. McStealth
Yes actually there has been some precedence and it is rediculus. People are "asking" about $200,000 plus! I don't know what they have actually sold for. I am insulted at what they are asking for some and I am not in the market (I am building my 3rd RV, a RV-7). Those RV-10's I suspect are people who are speculating and built it no doubt to make a profit, which is not in the spirit of the amateur built experimental plane category. In some case you see an ad about a RV-10 under construction, "still time to pick colors". These folks never the less want crazy money for a RV-10. I think they are crazy, but hey if I built a -10 and needed to unexpectically sell it, I would want the most I could get for it. Why not. The market demands or allows these prices(?) These prices of course are well above the build cost and are not really the intent of building lit planes, to make money.

Historically homebuilts sold for less than the cost it took the original builder to build it in most cases, however, the RV's have always had good resale and you could sell them for a little more than the build cost. A nice example can be sold for a little profit, but the prices have taken a jump. A $45,000 RV, 5-years ago is now a $60,000 RV. Also many RV's are now being built with new fuel injected engines, new constant speed props, fancy EFIS class cockpits and professional paint and interior. The early RV's where typically fitted with smaller carburated engines and fixed wood props with VFR instruments, so the price reflected this as well. I would say a typical new two seat RV is on the $80-$100K range. Bottom line, there are no bargains or steals in RV's. A new RV-10 is going to cost way more than $100,000 for sure. Now how people got the stones to ask $80,000 more than the build cost for a RV-10, an "amateur built plane", I don't know. It is a free country but it is crazy money, sepecially when there are so many great 4 place planes well under that. Obviously building is the way to go if you want a RV-10 in my opinion. It not hard and the kits are so good and the advent of QB kits makes build time an all time low. I did not emphasize this but BUILDING IS FUN, challenging and you will learn new skills. There is nothing like flying a plane you built.

Now the good news is if you do build a RV you can expect to make money if you ever sell it. Now I laugh about that. I sold my RV-4 for a "profit" many years ago, but when I included my labor, I made about $3.00 an hour, when I figure the 2000 hour it took to build. I sold it a little before the bubble and RV-4's tend to go for a little less than other comparable models, which makes them the bargain of the RV's. Still a nice RV-4 is $60,000 or more.

As far a Alex and kevinh they are just jealous. I am sure your two kids are the apple of your and your wife's eye's. Cheers George

Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 02-07-2006 at 04:04 AM.
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  #8  
Old 02-07-2006, 09:00 AM
Brad Gould Brad Gould is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 17
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot
Moony M20J (RV-10 in brackets)
Horsepower: 200.0 (260.0 HP)
Top Speed: 175 kts (208 mph/180 kts)
Cruise Speed: 170 kts (197 mph/ 171 kts)
I used to own a 1985 M20J for several years. With a freshly broken in engine, and well rigged, I could count on about 162-163 KTAS at optimal conditions. This is on the high side of what other Mooney owners I know get. Earlier vintage M20Js tend to cruise in teh high 150s, in my experience. Yes, the book says 170 for cruise, but that's very doubtful in the real world.

Still, low 160s is great considering all the 201's attributes.
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  #9  
Old 02-07-2006, 10:00 AM
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osxuser osxuser is offline
 
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How much fuel you save with the Mooney may be ofset by how much you pay for maintainence. So, the real question is, do you want to build an airplane? If you don't, I doubt the RV is for you.
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  #10  
Old 02-07-2006, 10:11 AM
jcoloccia jcoloccia is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by osxuser
How much fuel you save with the Mooney may be ofset by how much you pay for maintainence. So, the real question is, do you want to build an airplane? If you don't, I doubt the RV is for you.
Ditto...the only reason to build a plane is because you want to build a plane. Way easier just to get a 2nd job if nescessary and just buy the stupid thing.
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