Amateur Built vs ELSA

[Carol Carpenter]

I attend a Van's forum while at Sun N Fun. Very few Van's RV 12 builders at the show realized the huge advantage of certifying the RV 12 as ELSA over Amateur built. There is a 30-30% high resale value when a plane is certified as ELSA. After resale the new owner can take a short two day course and will be able to complete the yearly condition inspection. With amateur built he would need an A & P.
While you must build the aircraft exactly as the S-LSA model- after certification you can modify the aircraft. The operating limits on both are exactly the same.

[GSME]

Carol -

I don't understand your statement: "There is a 30-30% high resale value when a plane is certifed as ELSA."

Also, if the builder builds exactly like the S-LSA model and certifies it as E-LSA does he have to take the short two day course to be able and/or certified to complete the annual condition inspection on his own aircraft? I think it would probably be a godd idea, though.

Gary -

[Mel]

If built as E-LSA, the owner must take the 16 hr. course to do the condition inspection regardless of who built it. E-AB just requires that you show that you built a major portion of the aircraft to obtain the repairman certificate.

Not sure how you can come up with a resale value on an aircraft that hasn't been built or certificated either as E-AB or E-LSA yet.

[Mel]

Originally Posted by Carol Carpenter

The operating limits on both are exactly the same.

The E-LSA operating limitations have a paragraph stating that anyone with less than a recreational pilot certificate must have a class/category/make/model privilege endorsement. (ref. 8130.2F section 144, paragraph 16).

E-AB op lims have no such requirement.

[KPmarc]

Can we have some specific examples of the difference in ACTUAL sale prices of similar Ex-AB vs ELSA airplanes?

I have heard this argument before, and when you drill down, a big part of the assumption seems to be that getting an Ex-AB airplane through an annual condition inspection is a big deal for anyone but the builder. Therefore, an ELSA will have markedly lower inspection costs for subsequent owners.

This assumption doesn't jibe with my experience.

[wickedsprint]

Originally Posted by Carol Carpenter

I attend a Van's forum while at Sun N Fun. Very few Van's RV 12 builders at the show realized the huge advantage of certifying the RV 12 as ELSA over Amateur built. There is a 30-30% high resale value when a plane is certified as ELSA. After resale the new owner can take a short two day course and will be able to complete the yearly condition inspection. With amateur built he would need an A & P.
While you must build the aircraft exactly as the S-LSA model- after certification you can modify the aircraft. The operating limits on both are exactly the same.

It was my understanding that if you build your own plane under the amateur/experimental rule (NOT ESLSA), you get a repairman certificate which allows you to do the condition inspection and or fix any issues on your aircraft.

I also thought there were two course for the ESLA issue, one for doing the inspection, and a longer one for actually getting to fix any issues you find.

If you build just a straight experimental, you have tons more leeway if you built 51% of it.

The above is my understanding of the rules, if I am off, someone correct me please

[Mel]

Originally Posted by wickedsprint

It was my understanding that if you build your own plane under the amateur/experimental rule (NOT ESLSA), you get a repairman certificate which allows you to do the condition inspection and or fix any issues on your aircraft.

I also thought there were two course for the ESLA issue, one for doing the inspection, and a longer one for actually getting to fix any issues you find.

If you build just a straight experimental, you have tons more leeway if you built 51% of it.

The above is my understanding of the rules, if I am off, someone correct me please

First, you can do any and all maintenance on any experimental aircraft yourself. For the E-AB, you must show that you built a major portion of the aircraft to qualify for the repairman certificate allowing you to do the annual condition inspection.

For E-LSA you must attend a 16 hr. course to qualify for the LSA repairman certificate/inspection rating. This will allow you to do the annual condition inspection on any E-LSA (of the same category) that you own.

The LSA repairman certificate/maintenance rating is for S-LSAs. It will also allow you to do the 100 hr. inspection required for S-LSAs when used for flight training.

The maintenance rating will also allow you to inspect other people's aircraft and charge for it.

[mcjon77]

Carol DEFINATELY knows more about Light Sport maintanence than I do (or probably ever will), but her 30%-35% premium numbers seem WAY too high. Perhaps if we were comparing ExABs to factory made SLSAs I could by it, but otherwise not.

Lets assume that a used ExAB RV-12 will sell for $50K-$60K. Comparing that with ExAB zodiacs 601XLs for sale now, I consider this a very conservative number. If Carol's 30%-35% premium numbers are true, that would mean that a buyer would be willing to pay $15K-$20K MORE for the ELSA version.

Why in the world would a buyer pay a $15K-$20K premium to allow him to perform his own annuals, when a condition inspection by an agreeable A&P will probably only cost maybe $500 (sometimes MUCH LESS) a year. It would take the buyer 30-40 years to recoupe his premium. Even if it was $1,000 per year (which seems pretty high), it would still take 15-20 years to recoup that money.

There are enough RV non-builder owners on this site to get a realistic idea of how much such a condition inspection would cost. I have trouble believing that the average is high enough to justify such a premium.

[wickedsprint]

Originally Posted by Mel

First, you can do any and all maintenance on any experimental aircraft yourself. For the E-AB, you must show that you built a major portion of the aircraft to qualify for the repairman certificate allowing you to do the annual condition inspection.

For E-LSA you must attend a 16 hr. course to qualify for the LSA repairman certificate/inspection rating. This will allow you to do the annual condition inspection on any E-LSA (of the same category) that you own.

The LSA repairman certificate/maintenance rating is for S-LSAs. It will also allow you to do the 100 hr. inspection required for S-LSAs when used for flight training.

The maintenance rating will also allow you to inspect other people's aircraft and charge for it.

So if I understand you correctly, I can buy a used RV, and do whatever I want to it maint/fix wise..but since I didn't build it I have to have it inspected by an A&P, or the actual person who did build it, provided they have the repairman cert.

If I build an RV, I can fix anything and sign off on its annual.

I'm also interested in the ELSA aspect cause I like ultralights, but some of them get pretty heavy so you have to build em as ELSA..which brings diff factors into maint etc.

[Geico266]

Originally Posted by wickedsprint

So if I understand you correctly, I can buy a used RV, and do whatever I want to it maint/fix wise..but since I didn't build it I have to have it inspected by an A&P, or the actual person who did build it, provided they have the repairman cert.

Correct.