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  #11  
Old 03-31-2009, 06:00 AM
pierre smith's Avatar
pierre smith pierre smith is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Louisville, Ga
Posts: 7,840
Default And as a follow-up...

Lears, Citations and Boeing 707's weren't designed for aerobatics but they've all been rolled....more than once..

Regards,
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Pierre Smith
RV-10, 510 TT
RV6A (Sojourner) 180 HP, Catto 3 Bl (502Hrs), gone...and already missed
Air Tractor AT 502B PT 6-15 Sold
Air Tractor 402 PT-6-20 Sold
EAA Flight Advisor/CFI/Tech Counselor
Louisville, Ga

It's never skill or craftsmanship that completes airplanes, it's the will to do so,
Patrick Kenny, EAA 275132


Dues gladly paid!
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  #12  
Old 03-31-2009, 06:01 AM
terrykohler terrykohler is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,009
Default

When I first started building, I joined EAA and started attending meeting thru Chapter 13, a very active group in SE Michigan. At the time, over 100 members had approx. 60 projects underway, including a number of RVs. What really struck me from that onset was that over 50% of these individuals were either no time or low time pilots - and most of the aircraft were what could be classified as high performance. Bob Axsom's post kind of sums things up. Can RVs be flown in IMC. Yes, but the short wing designs are, in most cases, more demanding. Just like in VMC, an RV can get you into trouble in a hurry and get you out just as quickly, if you know what you're doing. Did Van's design them as instrument platforms? Perhaps not, but he also didn't design them as serious XC machines either, and they can do both pretty well in the right hands. If you look at the RV9, he originally designed that as a challenge to C150 and other trainers. From my perspective, he ended up with a great XC machine and a very solid instrument platform - in large part due to the wing design. Now if I can only find a decent known ice system (just kidding).
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
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  #13  
Old 03-31-2009, 07:24 AM
wv4i wv4i is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Palm Beach County, FL
Posts: 304
Default Flying IMC in any type aircraft

Need to be asking am I current, qualified, AND proficient in model/type, is the aircraft properly equipped, and are the forecast/actual environmental conditions along intended route of flight acceptable?
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Link McGarity
Wellington, FL (FD38)
RV6/N42GF bought flying, sold
RV6/N72AT bought flying, sold
B737-800/NxxxAN
Sonex TD w/Aerovee/N732SX bought flying
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  #14  
Old 03-31-2009, 07:34 AM
Alan Carroll's Avatar
Alan Carroll Alan Carroll is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 778
Default Another perspective - IFR vs. scud running

Quote:
Originally Posted by terrykohler View Post
Did Van's design them as instrument platforms? Perhaps not, but he also didn't design them as serious XC machines either, and they can do both pretty well in the right hands.
I do a fair amount of VFR XC flying in my RV-8, as do many others including Van's factory planes. If you do this regularly you will definitely encounter conditions that aren't exactly optimal VMC, at which point the choice's are 1. scud-running, or 2. motel. If you've got the time and commitment to exercise option 2, VFR XC is a great option.

However, there is always a certain amount of motivation to get to the destination even if the weather isn't ideal. Van actually wrote an RVator article entitled "Confessions of a Scud Runner" (12/92), which suggested ways to minimize the risks involved. The company later lost a plane and two great people due to scud-running through mountains in Arkansas.

I'd argue that VFR scud-running can be more dangerous than filing IFR, depending on circumstances. There are a lot of times when you could be comfortably cruising in smooth clear air above a layer, rather than bumping along in the haze and dodging TV towers beneath.

The SE vs. ME argument strikes me as a variant of the same old debate that played out in Flying Magazine for 30+ years between Collins and McClellan. My impression is the number of fatalities caused by engine failure in IMC is pretty small in relation to other causes.
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RV-8 N12AC
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  #15  
Old 03-31-2009, 07:52 AM
Steve Brown Steve Brown is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alviso, CA
Posts: 405
Default I fly mine IFR

And fly better than I did in other aircraft.

Ice happens when you are flying IMC. In fact, my reading of the regs is that it is perfectly legal to fly Mooneys, C182s and RVs into light icing conditions.

The thing is, sometimes light icing, whcih is not even forcast anymore, can become unexpected moderate icing.

I am more cautious about ice with my RV. Mooneys and C182s have a proven history of being able to haul a load of ice. RVs? I don't know and I don't want to be the one who finds out that they can't handle it.

So, my IFR flying is much more limited in my RV than in my last airplane (M20J). It has nothing to do with handling qualities, only avoiding ice.
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N598SD - RV9A second owner
O-320, 9:1 pistons, Catto 3 blade
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  #16  
Old 03-31-2009, 08:03 AM
DGlaeser DGlaeser is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 879
Default IMC in my RV7A

Quote:
Originally Posted by terrykohler View Post
--snip
Now if I can only find a decent known ice system (just kidding).
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
Terry,
What you (we all) need is an anti-ice system, known as staying well SOUTH of Michigan

Flying IMC in RV's does require a higher level of proficiency - and in an RV - because of the control sensitivity. I'm an active CFII and fly IMC regularly in Cessna's, and still feel the need to practice in my RV. It is essential to be very organized in the cockpit. I personally consider an autopilot required equipment, but you still need to be able to do it without.
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Rochester Hills, MI
RV-7A - Eggenfellner H6, GRT Sport ES, EIS4000, 300XL, SL30, TT Gemini, PMA6000, AK950L, GT320,
uAvionixEcho ADSB in/out with GRT Safe Fly GPS
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  #17  
Old 03-31-2009, 08:14 AM
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flion flion is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Posts: 2,653
Default

I'd like to hear the RV-10 pilots weigh in on this. While I equipped my -6A to be IFR legal, most of it was for convenience in VMC flight. But I'm hoping to expand my skills and flight envelope with the -10.
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RV-6A N156PK - Flying too much to paint
RV-10 14MX(reserved) - Fuselage on gear
http://www.mykitlog.com/flion/
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  #18  
Old 03-31-2009, 09:26 AM
Aviator168 Aviator168 is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Massapequa,NY
Posts: 115
Default

Isn't RDD working on integrating their Therm-X deicing system into the -10? They have done it for Lancair ES, Legacy, IV and PropJet Aircraft. Looks like there is demand for it. Even getting rid of small ice built ups in light icing conditions would be nice.

http://www.rddent.com/rd/
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  #19  
Old 03-31-2009, 11:04 AM
USCANAM USCANAM is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Cape Cod MA.
Posts: 236
Default My RV9A is set up for IFR

but at this stage in my life, and required flight missions, it will just be for light IFR, light IFR approaches, or to get to known VFR conditions.
I have well over a 1000 hours of actual IFR logged, but now my IFR will be limited to the confidence and security that will allow me to plan and complete a cross county flight in known marginal VFR conditions.
My concerns about flying my overpowered RV9A in light potential temporary conditions (as being in clouds for a while while climbing, or landing) are the tank vents icing up. I will eliminate this by either heating the vents, or having an alternate cabin vent source.
I'm not sure how much ice the -9 will carry, and I have no interest in finding out.
I do recall many years ago I was in almost ideal conditions to find out how much my Mooney would carry.
For those of you in the North East, you might be familiar with V139 that by-passes New York by going out over the ocean from the tip of Long Island and goes to Sea Isle near Atlantic City.
One night I was returning home to Cape Cod, and I was on top of a 4000 foot thick layer at 13000 feet. I knew that I would pick up ice on the way down, but I also knew the temps were above freezing below 7000.
I asked New York Approach and was granted a pilot discretion descent down to 5000 feet while still over the ocean.
What I found out was at about a 400 foot per minute descent, I had full power on and was just able to maintain about 100 knots before I broke out and ice started to depart as forecast.
No, I will not do the same test with the -9!!!, but I learned a lot that night.
Jack
RV9A
87 hours

Last edited by USCANAM : 03-31-2009 at 06:03 PM.
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  #20  
Old 03-31-2009, 03:32 PM
scottg scottg is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Long Island
Posts: 54
Default

All I can say is WOW.
"You get so used to practicing engine out drills in multi-engine airplanes, then one day recognize in a SE the drill (in IMC that goes to the ground) glide, crash, die."

Being a little dramatic, aren't we? Thank you for making the case never to fly SE IMC in any aircraft. How about beyond gliding distance from shore, over mountains, or even outside the traffic pattern? Actually, being in the traffic pattern is too dangerous as the extended downwind will KILL you.

Van's has stated he designed the aircraft as a VFR sport aircraft. If that's the only answer the OP want's, then I believe we can all agree on it.

As a builder, and RV pilot who regularly flies IFR, I'll state that a properly equipped RV makes a fine IFR aircraft. Do you want to get down to 200 and a half? No. Can it do it? Yes. You really don't want to be there in any SE, single pilot aircraft. Equip an RV with a dual axis autopilot and proper redundancy in the avionics / flight instruments and you will have a capable, fast cross country machine.

There has been talk about ice. I agree, the RV has no business getting anywhere near ice. My long trips are for vacation. I take my vacations in the summer. Ice has never been an issue. The plane is "VFR" only in the winter.

Scott
RV-6A 1000+ hrs
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