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02-26-2009, 01:24 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: South Hamilton, MA
Posts: 521
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how will you use the plane?
I guess it really comes down to how you plan to use your plane and how you like to fly. Do you prefer to fly locally and short trips in decent VFR conditions, or are you also a traveler who has cross country missions you want to accomplish? Do you enjoy the precision that comes from being an instrument pilot?
I am a traveler. I know this because in my Cessna I flew a ton of xcountry trips to visit friends, pick up/drop off relatives, etc. Also, I love the accuracy required for single pilot IFR flying. As a result, my -7A will have IFR capability with redundancy built in.
You certainly don't want to put yourself in the position of being a traveler and having a plane that isn't properly equipped for IFR. Scud running is not the way to go.
Good luck.
__________________
Antony
RV-7A
Empenage complete, wings complete, tip-up canopy complete, starting wiring ...
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02-26-2009, 02:07 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alviso, CA
Posts: 405
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Fair amount
Quote:
Originally Posted by N316RV
Of you guys with Instrument tickets that have flying RVs equipped for instrument flying, how often do you actually fly IMC?
.....The $$$ difference between a nice VFR panel and an IFR panel with appropriate fail safes are significant (no surprise right?).......
Thanks
Alan Jackson
N316RV
RV-9A
Hartselle, AL
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On average.
As I've written before, I fly more precise IFR in my RV than I did in the Mooney it replaced. I can't explain why, but its a fact. On the other hand, I'm less likely to fly the airplane in driving rain or when more than a brief encounter with light ice is possible. I'm not as sure how the airplane will handle it and I don't want to be the test pilot.
Haven't flown much IFR recently because I have had a problem with my carb heat door opening due to air pressure. And yes, I got some intake ice the day I found out about the problem.
I think I fixed that now so I'll do more again, especially as the weather warms (less ice at my levels)
My opinion:
Equip for IFR
XM weather capability as in GPS496, or other XM capable
Autopilot with at least altitude hold, track, and nav
HSI (I use a 2nd dynon D10 that becomes a backup AI with the push of a button)
SL30 - has tremendous capabilities in terms of frequency storage, listen to standby, etc
Decent GPS, like a 430W. I don't have this - yet
The better equipped you are, the more IFR you'll fly, but for me anything beyond the above list would be diminishing returns in terms of what I would be willing to fly.
Most of my IFR flights are in IMC for relatively brief duration. Mostly departure and arrival, with intermittent en route. That's by choice. I tend not to like being bounced around in the clouds for hours at a time if I can help it. I've done it when necessary, but its not fun.
__________________
Steve Brown
N598SD - RV9A second owner
O-320, 9:1 pistons, Catto 3 blade
KRHV - Reid Hillview airport, San Jose, CA
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02-26-2009, 09:56 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 2,125
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Alan,
From my observations around the airport, it seems there is a variety of "levels of uses" of an IFR panel. The gent with the -8 across the hangar row uses his IFR capability a lot, and has been all over the country with it. Another nearby gent with an IFR -8 has never touched a cloud...but he stays more local and has the capability in a pinch. Sounds like a lot of guys on the forum get great use from the equipment and the rating, and that's very cool.
As a guy with the rating, but not quite the panel, I'm jones-ing a bit for the capability...FWIW in your survey.
I bought a VFR -6 with the intention of VFR flying only. Upgraded the panel and have dual EFIS, an AP and a 396...but opted for an SL-40. The more I fly the airplane, the more I see the value-added an SL-30 would bring. After researching, looks like upgrading to that, adding a NAV antenna, and maybe a heated pitot, and I'd probably have close to what Steve above has, and I could file /A and shoot a VOR/LOC/ILS if needed. For my uses and situation, that would be plenty, as my goal would be to get in and/or out of a high mins, docile weather situation (marine layer won't burn, etc.) or be able to land ASAP if the airplane or a pax got sickly...akin to what Paul and others called that added confidence factor.
I have a free airline backup, and plan my trips with max flexibility, so that reduces my IFR needs, IMHO...just don't have the need to fly in all sorts of weather, though I respect those that train for it and do. But that's my situation, and I consider myself lucky to have a cheap backup plan.
If I needed or wanted to do even more with the RV and fly "harder" IFR, or had a little less flexibility or fewer options, I'd want all the bells and whistles...IFR GPS (/G), VOR/LOC/ILS (/A), two radios, etc...and in a perfect world, SV (Paul, I covet your panel, along with others'!) Not that ya gotta have it all...it can be done with less, of course...just gotta decide what you need for your comfort and safety.
But if going that route, I'd also be making a commitment to train to high levels of proficiency on all aspects of that equipment. Being IFR-current at work wouldn't make me current in my RV, so the commitment (to me) would mean time and money. I just wouldn't want to press into a spot where I needed everything in my panel, unless I was well-prepared to use it all very comfortably. And even with all the bells, I'd still have pretty conservative go/no-go criterion.
Fortunately (or unfortunately  ) my flexibility trumps my budget. But my "have a backup plan" mentality makes me "feel the need".
Guess what I'm saying is (as others have said) equip to your needs and mission (perhaps a little beyond if budget allows, so you don't wish you had later...AMHIK), consider the travel flexibility and options you have, as well as your willingness/abilty to stay current on what you select.
Best of luck...bet it's fun to be considering all the cool gadgets!!
Cheers,
Bob
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02-26-2009, 10:40 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southeast
Posts: 569
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What is "hard" IFR or its opposite? Would that be "soft" IFR or "easy" IFR? Beats me.
C'mon, there aren't degrees of IFR. The FAA or ATC doesn't distinguish. Neither should we. A non-precision circling approach flown to actual minimums at 600 and 1 can be MORE challenging than an ILS approach flown to actual minimums at 200 and 1/2.
To a certain extent, you can pick the weather conditions you want to fly in, but not always. Forecasts have been known to be wrong.
I was trying to imply in my earlier post that if you are going to accept an IFR clearance, you need to be able to fly the weather that's there, whether it is VMC or IMC.
If you aren't ready for it, you can get just as screwed up during 30 seconds in IMC as you can over 3 hours.
IFR is IFR. You only decide what capability that you're willing to pay for and the skill level you're willing to maintain.
I don't seek it out, but my -7A has a metal prop and flies just fine in driving rain, just have a towel to catch the minor drips from the overhead canopy latch and larger towel to catch the larger drips through the slider "doghouse".
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02-27-2009, 12:28 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 2,125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alcladrv
What is "hard" IFR or its opposite? Would that be "soft" IFR or "easy" IFR? Beats me.
C'mon, there aren't degrees of IFR. The FAA or ATC doesn't distinguish. Neither should we. A non-precision circling approach flown to actual minimums at 600 and 1 can be MORE challenging than an ILS approach flown to actual minimums at 200 and 1/2.
To a certain extent, you can pick the weather conditions you want to fly in, but not always. Forecasts have been known to be wrong.
I was trying to imply in my earlier post that if you are going to accept an IFR clearance, you need to be able to fly the weather that's there, whether it is VMC or IMC.
If you aren't ready for it, you can get just as screwed up during 30 seconds in IMC as you can over 3 hours.
IFR is IFR. You only decide what capability that you're willing to pay for and the skill level you're willing to maintain.
I don't seek it out, but my -7A has a metal prop and flies just fine in driving rain, just have a towel to catch the minor drips from the overhead canopy latch and larger towel to catch the larger drips through the slider "doghouse".
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Whooops,
Didn't mean to spark a debate or hijack the thread. Perhaps I should have said "if I wanted to increase mission completion reliability in a wider variety of weather conditions and shoot approaches in my RV down closer to minimums than described above..., I'd want more bells and whistles".
I really don't disagree with either of your posts, and concur, IFR is IFR. If I misused the word hard, please replace with "closer to mins", or something similar. (I won't use lower, 'cause I agree with your statement about circling NP mins...like the NDB circle in snow that night in...but that's another story...  )
All I was tryng to say is, much as you were saying...equip to your likely mission and personal comfort level/personal mins...and like you said, perhaps a bit lower to allow for growth. Was just saying if I equip as such, I'd do this...for that, I'd want more gizmos, and would train to it.
Didn't mean to hit a button...next cold one's on me!
Cheers,
Bob
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02-27-2009, 09:21 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 50
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I bought my RV already built and the builder put in a twin screen GRT stack with Garmin 430 and a Icom radio. i have a dynon as my backup EFIS. an autopilot that does everything but tie my shoe...
i file IFR nearly everytime i fly to work.
i fly IMC EVERY chance i can get. if it doesnt have ice or thunderstorms in it, i am going through it.
regarding autopilots. i typically hand fly in IMC. unless i am just droaning and want a break. my autopilot will shoot a coupled approach and i let it do that for my own practice in monitoring the system, but i always hand fly.
my airplane trims up nearly perfectly. i doesnt wander at all.
why do people insist on autopilots being a must? if you are a proficient IFR/IMC pilot, you should be able to handle an instrument approach at 80 knots......
is this an experience thing or what?
curious,
Jeff Ray
RV-9A
__________________
Jeff Ray
N298AM
Cirrus SR-20
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02-27-2009, 01:06 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Charlotte, N.C.
Posts: 47
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Stress Reliever
Use the system! You are paying for it! I always file IFR on X-Country's. The controllers will keep you out of the TFR's, MOA's and restricted area's. You always have someone to talk to if you have a problem. You can plan your flight for the best winds and not have to climb or descend to miss a few clouds. Plus, it keeps my wife happy! She is not happy unless we are "seen" (in radar contact)!
Randy Utsey
N55CU / RV-7
Charlotte, N.C.
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02-27-2009, 01:40 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alviso, CA
Posts: 405
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All IFR not created equal
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcladrv
......
C'mon, there aren't degrees of IFR. The FAA or ATC doesn't distinguish. Neither should we..........
To a certain extent, you can pick the weather conditions you want to fly in, but not always. Forecasts have been known to be wrong.
I was trying to imply in my earlier post that if you are going to accept an IFR clearance, you need to be able to fly the weather that's there, whether it is VMC or IMC.
If you aren't ready for it, you can get just as screwed up during 30 seconds in IMC as you can over 3 hours.
IFR is IFR........
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I disagree with the basic premise of your post, and so does every book I have read on the subject and every instructor I have ever done IFR training with. Additionally, it doesn't match my personal experience or even pass the sanity check.
A flight out through a thin layer of overcast into otherwise clear skies forces you to file, but is very easy. Likewise a VFR flight that ends with a pop up approach with wide margins to minimum is easy IFR.
On the other hand, continuous IFR en route, with turbulence, at night, is much more challenging. An autopilot helps reduce the stress and workload, but I call this "hard" IFR.
Likewise and ILS with 500' ceiling and 2 miles visibility is easy, but an ILS down to minimums, in driving rain, in turbulence, at night, into an unfamiliar airport: that's hard.
I could go on and on, but the point is that IFR is not IFR. There are many gradations. Knowing that, with an understanding of ones current skill level and airplanes capability is one important key to eventually dying of old age.
Obviously, you need to be able to pilot and navigate by instruments for any IFR flight. However, we are not machines. When I'm well tuned I can handle several hours of solid IFR if needed, but when not so well tuned, the stress of that will take its toll on my skills over time.
So, I could in fact fly IFR for a few minutes just fine, but after an hour start to make mistakes and fall behind the airplane.
Same with down to minimums verses wide margins, etc.
When I do the assessment of whether me and my machine are capable of a particular IFR flight, all of this has to be factored in. The bar is not always the same height.
For the pilot who is only going to do "light" IFR as a practical matter....In my view that is fine as long as they understand all the factors that go into that decision. That includes having a very unambiguous understanding of what is hard or what is easy for them and their machine.
__________________
Steve Brown
N598SD - RV9A second owner
O-320, 9:1 pistons, Catto 3 blade
KRHV - Reid Hillview airport, San Jose, CA
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02-27-2009, 02:12 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff122670
I bought my RV already built and the builder put in a twin screen GRT stack with Garmin 430 and a Icom radio. i have a dynon as my backup EFIS. an autopilot that does everything but tie my shoe...
i file IFR nearly everytime i fly to work.
i fly IMC EVERY chance i can get. if it doesnt have ice or thunderstorms in it, i am going through it.
regarding autopilots. i typically hand fly in IMC. unless i am just droaning and want a break. my autopilot will shoot a coupled approach and i let it do that for my own practice in monitoring the system, but i always hand fly.
my airplane trims up nearly perfectly. i doesnt wander at all.
why do people insist on autopilots being a must? if you are a proficient IFR/IMC pilot, you should be able to handle an instrument approach at 80 knots......
is this an experience thing or what?
curious,
Jeff Ray
RV-9A
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Jeff: Take a look at an earlier post by Bob Axsom (I flew to work every day for 15 years often in IMC with a Piper Archer and I never used my autopilot so I did not install one in my RV-6A. After a year or so of minor to extreme tension because of the attention required to fly the RV on instruments with all of the other ATC and navigation requirements...).
You're flying a 9, which is more similar to a Cherokee in terms of stability and control response than the other RV models. Perhaps your two posts should be linked to any question that comes up regarding "What should I build/What type of flying do I expect to do". Two interesting perspectives.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
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02-27-2009, 08:48 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 7
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The answer to your question is the difference between planning to fly in IMC and having to fly in IMC. It simply is a matter of what is it worth to you to have the necessary equipment on board to comfortably shoot that approach you never planned on having to make and now must.
George
N242LP
RV-6A
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