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01-20-2009, 09:09 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Rock Hill, SC
Posts: 390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight
<SNIP? If you are equipped with an SL-30 as your only IFR nav receiver, you might find it hard to find 3 different approaches (in your local area) that you can fly for the check ride for instance. An IFR GPS is becoming almost required if you really want to be able to go places - we're finding that out with Louise's plane these days. <SNIP>
Paul
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To the OP, if you will excuse the little rant, I can't emphasize Paul's comment enough.
Some folks seem to think 1 or 2 VOR/LOC receivers are "good enough" but you will find you need much more capability to navigate through the system. Yes, you can go begging for vectors but there are times when ATC will say, "sorry, too busy, all I can give you is the full procedure". Furthermore, a lot of ILS approaches need DME or ADF support and a lot of airports have nothing but GPS approaches.
Some real-world examples: 1 airport near you, Willow (PAUO), has only 2 approaches, both of which require IFR GPS. Another one, Big Lake (PAGU), has 3 approaches, 2 of which require IFR GPS. The third one (see link below) technically requires only 1 VOR receiver. But here's the catch: the missed approach procedure is based on the same VORTAC as the inbound course, requiring you to reset your CDI while you're flying the procedure if you don't have a second VOR receiver. Also, the missed approach point can be identified by DME - but if you don't have DME, you're gonna be checking your stopwatch while you're doing 90 knots at less than 1000' AGL with 1 mile visibility.
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0901/05220V7.PDF
I'd recommend at least the following capabilities (regardless of what specific hardware you use):
1 or 2 VOR/LOC (1 with glideslope)
DME
ADF
IFR GPS (ENROUTE, TERMINAL, and APPROACH); optional WAAS
This doesn't necessarily require a lot of hardware - 1 SL30 and 1 GNS430 do the trick. If you can stand the shame of not having the latest and greatest Garmin color displays, a lot of older IFR GPS units will work just fine, too.
__________________
Jonathan Hines
Charlotte, NC
Last edited by JHines : 01-20-2009 at 09:14 PM.
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01-20-2009, 09:22 PM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Houston, Alaska
Posts: 292
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Many interesting responses, good information. There is a tremendous amount of wisdom in IronFlights comments about building an airplane for it's application. That said, I'll come clean. I'm not building an RV, I'm building a bearhawk (I live in Alaska and need a bush rig) but I love reading these forums because there is so much information here.
Anyway, single engine IFR in this state isn't something I want to play with, rather I would like to get my ticket for the training and perhaps cheaper insurance. Having the ability to go IFR instead of asking for a special would be pretty handy the few times it MIGHT happen, and the potential resale value doesn't hurt either. So my IFR requirements aren't that high, much more important is keeping things simple and light. Weight is everything when your operating off field so an IFR panel can't compromise that. If it comes down to VFR or a 30lb IFR panel with the maze of wires to boot I'll probably pick VFR.
Perhaps dual glass panels would be the way to go, but now we are talking about redundant electrical system, multiple AHRS sensors, and a bunch of other factors. Besides, can I trust the AHRS on a glass panel system? MEMS gyros can act pretty funky, especially in the cold. I figured a vacuum attitude sensor would give me independence from the electrical system while being more reliable. I suspect the weight of the vacuum pump is about the same as an electric attitude sensor and the backup battery.
As far as GPS goes, those are crazy expensive. Is there any alternative to a 430W? If I get one, I wouldn't be able to afford anything else other than the MGL, transponder, and the 296 I already have. Is that going to be enough to do IFR safely? Sounds like I would be just fine as long as nothing failed, but if something did die, I would be in trouble.
schu
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01-20-2009, 09:26 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akschu
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VFR:
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Anticollision lights
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Night VFR:
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Landing light
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When did Anti-collision lights become a requirement of D-VFR and
landing lights become a requirement for non-rev N-VFR flights?
I'm not saying they aren't a good thing but I'm not sure they are required.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
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01-20-2009, 09:32 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Jackson, MS
Posts: 1,262
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Set your budget
Have you determined your budget and how much you are willing to spend?
My 2 cents - if you provide a dollar amount, you may get some great answers.
I keep referring to this link but it might also help you decide what you may need:
http://www.rainierultralightengines....quirements.pdf
__________________
Webb Willmott
Jackson, MS
N32WW
Last edited by Webb : 01-20-2009 at 09:41 PM.
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01-20-2009, 09:49 PM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Houston, Alaska
Posts: 292
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N941WR, good eye, those aren't FAA requirement, but they are my requirements.
Webb, good suggestion.
I would really like to stay under $12k if that is even possible. Doesn't sound like it with the IFR GPS burning $8k of it.
Aircraft spruce has a package where they sell:
Dynon 180
HSI module
GNS 430w
GTX327 transponder
for $13279
But even then, I don't know if that would do what I need. I can add an SL30 for another $3500 and then I would have everything that was recommended, but no fault tolerance except for the handheld GPS and a second radio and I'm up to $17k.
It's just not looking like it's in the cards. What about used gear? Can I trust it?
Thanks,
schu
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01-20-2009, 10:06 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Rock Hill, SC
Posts: 390
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I'd feel perfectly comfortable with used equipment that was yellow tagged.
You can get a King KLN89B or similar (TSO'd IFR GPS) for $2K or less (probably way less). I'm pretty sure Garmin has similar older units. Add maybe $500 to $1K for the required annunciator/switching panel and CDI (or whatever hardware you need to get the GPS to talk to the Dynon).
Then add what, a couple of grand for an SL30? so that is $5K total vs. $8K+ for a GNS430. Of course, you could go for a used nav/comm radio, too.
The Spruce package you mentioned would give you a lot of capability Remember, the 430 has a com/nav radio built in, so you're getting a lot more than just a GPS. In fact, a panel with just a 430 and a transponder wouldn't be all that bad.
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Jonathan Hines
Charlotte, NC
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01-20-2009, 10:53 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Jackson, MS
Posts: 1,262
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Gotta have a CDI
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHines
I'd feel perfectly comfortable with used equipment that was yellow tagged.
You can get a King KLN89B or similar (TSO'd IFR GPS) for $2K or less (probably way less). I'm pretty sure Garmin has similar older units. Add maybe $500 to $1K for the required annunciator/switching panel and CDI (or whatever hardware you need to get the GPS to talk to the Dynon).
Then add what, a couple of grand for an SL30? so that is $5K total vs. $8K+ for a GNS430. Of course, you could go for a used nav/comm radio, too.
The Spruce package you mentioned would give you a lot of capability Remember, the 430 has a com/nav radio built in, so you're getting a lot more than just a GPS. In fact, a panel with just a 430 and a transponder wouldn't be all that bad.
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Don't forget you have to have an external CDI for a valid IFR GPS.
Like I said, define your budget. Look at the attached list I posted and see what you have to have equipment wise. Then look at what you need to spend to get up to speed for IFR flight.
If money is tight, then equip the plane with 2 decent older radios, each with a CDI and 1 of those needs to have a glideslope. Make sure you have the other equipment such as a turn indicator. Buy yourself a used 196 for situational awareness (legal for that) and you can do you training and learn the "old fashioned way". Not bad advice since you need to know how to fly without a GPS. Spend the rest of the money on training and then graduate up to the next level of equipment as you can afford it. Consider setting up your panel for those upgrades later on.
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Webb Willmott
Jackson, MS
N32WW
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01-20-2009, 11:05 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akschu
...Dynon 180
HSI module
..
Thanks,
schu
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Schu,
Good list and I suggest you add the Dynon Auto Pilot. For $1500 you can add both servos and they will be a great help in the clouds. You can then add the AP74 or AP76 later, if you like.
Don?t worry about the price of these electronics at this point, by the time you need them the prices will change and there will be new/better products out there. Thus you might be able to buy a used D180 for a really good price when the time comes.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
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01-20-2009, 11:08 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webb
Don't forget you have to have an external CDI for a valid IFR GPS...
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Webb,
The D180 has an full HSI, including glide slope as does the Dynon's artificial horizon. So he is covered there.
Here's a picture, unfortunately it doesn't show the glide slope but it is there.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
Last edited by N941WR : 01-20-2009 at 11:11 PM.
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01-21-2009, 12:00 AM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Houston, Alaska
Posts: 292
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What is the deal with the garmin GNC 300XL it seems like I can't buy one of those unless I pay someone to install it. Also, what do they mean by "TSO-certified for non-precision approaches"? Basically what does a 430 buy me that a 300xl doesn't except for the better screen and nav radio? Like I said, I'm IFR ignorant. I've only been flying for 2 years.
Last edited by akschu : 01-21-2009 at 12:05 AM.
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