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View Poll Results: Hypothetically if you were selecting your engine right now, would you consider FADEC?
Never! I learned to fly with mags and a carb or mechanical FI, and I'll never trust anything else. 9 4.50%
Nah... I've warmed up to electronic ignition, but electronic FI still gives me the heebee-jeebies. 18 9.00%
Maybe some day. Sounds good, but I'd want to see more of them flying before I'd take the plunge. 40 20.00%
Maybe if the price is right. Sounds good, but it needs to come down in initial cost. 83 41.50%
Heck yeah, give me! I love the benefits, and I'm willing to pay for it. Cheaper in the long run. 46 23.00%
Other. What did I miss? 4 2.00%
Voters: 200. You may not vote on this poll

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  #11  
Old 01-12-2009, 06:21 PM
gasman gasman is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sonoma County
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Wall said Andy..............
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  #12  
Old 01-12-2009, 09:17 PM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
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Default

Hot or cold starting is no problem with EFI once it is all tested and programmed properly.

At the quantities required for the aviation market, injectors and other fuel hardware is readily available from hundreds of vendors. Supply is not a problem.

I agree with Andy, no need for a red knob once everything is programmed and tested. The FADEC will do a better job than a human over the course of startup, taxi, climb and cruise. Always optimized for best power and lowest fuel flow.

IMO doing fuel injection is actually less work than EI. Many of the problems with the popular aviation EIs are due to lack of testing in my view plus some questionable design work as well. Heat and moisture need to be managed with electronics and some vendors in this field do stuff that would never pass first review in the automotive world.

One of our clients is about to start flight testing a low cost experimental EI/EFI setup for Lycoming 4 cylinder engines. I don't think there is a big market for $6K+ FADECs in the experimental world.

With the success of one of our other clients in Reno Super Sport Class last year using EI/EFI, many others are suddenly interested in the advantages it offers over conventional controls- especially in this high workload environment.
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Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, Shorai- RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 441.0 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
http://sdsefi.com/cpi2.htm



Last edited by rv6ejguy : 01-12-2009 at 09:26 PM.
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  #13  
Old 01-12-2009, 10:45 PM
jarhead jarhead is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR View Post
I think that is why you haven't seen a real push for aviation FADEC in anything other than helicopters.
Just about every new-design aviation turbine engine, whether it's turboshaft or turbofan, is FADEC-equipped. Even the majority of "growth" engines are FADEC'd in the upgrade process (example - CFM56).
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Helicopter mechanic (A&P)
USAFR KC-10 Boom Operator, on final approach to retirement
My RV-9/8/7 dream may be on life support, but it ain't dead yet!
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  #14  
Old 01-13-2009, 07:31 AM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,769
Default Price vs. Reliability

I find it very interesting that almost 50% of the voters are interested in price, and less than 18% are concerned with reliability.
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Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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  #15  
Old 01-13-2009, 09:13 AM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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I think many have expressed concern with reliability by saying they wouldn't buy until many tens of thousands of flight hours prove they are reliable- rightly so.
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Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, Shorai- RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 441.0 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
http://sdsefi.com/cpi2.htm


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  #16  
Old 01-13-2009, 10:50 AM
DaneP DaneP is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Fayetteville GA
Posts: 17
Default Flying W/ FADEC

I can say that I like flying an aircraft with FADEC. I never liked messing with the mixture control. I prefer to start it up and go flying. I have not had problems with fowled plugs (too rich) or burned pistons (too lean). I get good gas mileage and plenty of power at all altitudes and I don't have to think about it. Would I use FADEC again on another airplane? Probably, but it's not a slam dunk either. Aerosance is out of business and future support is in question. If Lycoming came out with a system, I would definitely give it a look.

Dane Patterson
RV-8 w/ IOF-360
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  #17  
Old 01-13-2009, 11:04 AM
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John Clark John Clark is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
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Default Exactly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
I think many have expressed concern with reliability by saying they wouldn't buy until many tens of thousands of flight hours prove they are reliable- rightly so.
I have no doubt that a reliable FADEC could be engineered. The problem is how does the manufacturer recoup the money spent on the engineering and testing? The market is so small and the development costs so big that no one with any business sense is going to take the risk. This leads to people trying to produce the product without the capital and development required and then sell it "before its time."

Personally, in my slightly "steam gauge" mind there is another issue. I like to be involved in the process when I am operating a vehicle for fun. As much as I admire the seamless performance of my Audi A4 with it's electronic engine controls, I much prefer my old Alfa Romeo for a sporting drive. It "needs me" the Audi doesn't. Same with aircraft. When I was flying turbines for a living I was very fond of all the PFM* that made my job easier but for fun, I enjoy doing some manual engine management.

(* Pure Flaming Magic)

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
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  #18  
Old 01-13-2009, 11:31 AM
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kbehrent kbehrent is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Puget Sound Area, WA
Posts: 220
Default I did, sort of....

I went with the Eagle EMS from Precision Airmotive. They are the manufacturers of the SilverHawk fuel injections along with a Bendix clone for the certified market.

The Eagle encompasses dual electronic ignitions and electronic fuel injection. It does NOT control the prop. It eliminates the hot starts and constantly adjusts the fuel mixture for all phases of flight. If you are really wanting to run lean, you can manually lean by an additional 10% using the supplied small dial.

I bought my system from Aerosport who is the most knowledgeable about the system and have done several builds and tests on this 320s, 360s, and 390s. It cost me $2,500 more going this route vs the typical mag/light speed and Silverhawk installation.

It contains all the backups that one would expect. It does require it's own battery backup for which I use a small 3.6 Amp Hr battery that the Eagle will monitor and maintain. The Eagle uses 1.6 Amp per hour, so that gives me a couple of hours of runtime, which is plenty to find a place to land.

Hope to be flying by June.
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Puget Sound, WA
RV-9A
Aerosport (Superior XP) IO-320 C/S, Precision Eagle EMS
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  #19  
Old 01-13-2009, 11:38 AM
Danny7 Danny7 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: central oregon
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy_RR View Post

As far as operation, safety and reliablity, unquestionably it could be made to better than six-sigma reliability and "perfect" cold starting, altitude operation and optimum fuel consumption are a given. (BTW, LOP operations become meaningless as soon as you fiddle with the igniton angle - there is no need for a mixture knob - really! )

can you explain how that works (not needing lop if you can adjust ignition angle) in a short post for someone that doesn't know what you are talking about?
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  #20  
Old 01-13-2009, 02:35 PM
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John Clark John Clark is offline
 
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Location: Santa Barbara, CA
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Default I'm interested too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny7 View Post
can you explain how that works (not needing lop if you can adjust ignition angle) in a short post for someone that doesn't know what you are talking about?
I am looking forward the the explanation too. The fuel mapping that I have seen on EFI engines goes very lean of peak when conditions are right.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
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