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  #21  
Old 01-07-2009, 01:24 AM
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lucky333 lucky333 is offline
 
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Default Dropped by Superior in Coppell today..

.. just to see if the lights were still on. They were and I had a nice chat with them. As those who have received the 'big packets' already know, its a real deal. They filed on 12/31. The lights go out in a couple of weeks. Here is what I found out FWIW:

Lycs parent (Textron/Avco) bought the assets (parts, drawings, certifications, PMAs etc). Looking at the big photo-posters on the office walls of what they produced, $11M is a steal (IMHO)

They are keeping the engineering group, at least for now. No speculation why or whether they will stay on long term.

Since it was Lycs parent co. that bought them, for now at least, Lyc and Superior are sister companies. (Some news reports indicate that the XP business will stay. Didn't explore that).

No warranty support. Only assets were bought. (that's pretty standard, as bad as it is for the victims). Legally, warranties are honored by the bankrupt shell that's left after all the good stuff is gone.


If you have placed any deposits or pre-paid orders, you are now a creditor of the bankrupt shell. The $11M received in the buyout will go towards satisfying creditors. If you don't hear from the bankruptcy court very soon, contact them (sorry, don't know which one, call Superior while you can) and get on the list.

Eagle Engines bought a whole bunch of parts just before this went down.

The Thielert fiasco hurt a bunch. Thielert did the final machining on Superior's cylinders among other things. Other factors were mentioned, too, some of which have been in the news. Curiously, the economic downturn wasn't cited as a root cause. Business was OK if not spectacular. Foreign sales were pretty good, still.

Myself, I'm bummed. This was the year I was going to stroll down the street and buy my engine.What a great outfit. I recall when my buddy Ken built his engine from a kit with the help of an AP/IA. The guy showed us side by side with a Lyc the improvements that Superior had made in the whole engine. Bigger webs here, beefier parts there. Just, well, superior. Later, we dropped in at Coppell to get a couple of (free) bolts. Somehow, we got on to a prop I was considering and whether/why it might have RPM limitations etc and were blabbing on about it when (Bill?) charged out of his office and gave us a 10 min. symposium on torsional resonances and testing methods / procedures as they pertained to a 4 cyl engine / prop combination. Nice.
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Last edited by lucky333 : 01-07-2009 at 01:28 AM.
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  #22  
Old 01-08-2009, 07:47 PM
whifof100ll whifof100ll is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mandeville, Louisiana
Posts: 179
Default Superior Chapter 11

I also got the fat stack of paper from the friendly lawyers at Strasburger and Price of Austin Texas today. It contains four seperate very lengthy documents full of legal babble.

All are motions filed by Strasburger and Price, proposed attorneys for debtor Superior Air Parts Inc. in the US Bankruptcy Court for the Northern District of Texas.

Motions I recieved copies of are as follows:

Debtor's expedited motion to approve bid proceedures for sale of substatially all of debtor's assets free and clear of leins

Debtor's expedited motion to approve bid proceedures for sale of subtiantially all of debtor's assets free and clear of leins

Debtor's motion for expedited heaing of motions filed by debtor on January 2, 2008

and Debtor's motion for order setting bar date for claims.

I am not a lawyer and I do not know what these documents mean and exactly how this will impact me and other XP owners. I fear the 2.5 years of remaining warranty that came with my new XPIO360 engine is might be considered a liability which goes away with the sale.

As others have stated, it seems that Textron buying them in a chapter 11 state that means they get the goods with no obligations. The seller will not likely be in a position to give any remedy to a warranty claim.

These motions are asking for creditors to speak up if there are objections. Of course, as a purchaser of a new engine, I am not OK with losing my warranty and have no idea how to respond or if customers have any recourse at all.

I would need to hire a laywer to even know if it is advisable to hire a lawyer at this point. Just checking with others that might be going through the same thing to see if some sort of cooperation is in order and if anyone thinks we have any recourse to protect our investment. Perhaps there is some leverage to entice Lycoming to stand behind customers who just bought engines.

As far as post warranty support, anybody know if there are there many Lyco or ECi parts that will not fit on a Superior roller tappet engine?
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Last edited by whifof100ll : 01-08-2009 at 09:18 PM. Reason: for some reason did not see the thread on this topic
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  #23  
Old 01-08-2009, 09:22 PM
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AlexPeterson AlexPeterson is offline
 
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Location: Maple Grove, MN
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whifof100ll View Post
I got a nice fat stack of paper from the friendly lawyers at Strasburger and Price of Austin Texas today. It contains four seperate very lengthy documents full of legal babble.

All are motions filed by Strasburger and Price, proposed attorneys for debtor Superior Air Parts Inc. in the US Bankruptcy Court for the Northern District of Texas.

Motions I recieved copies of are as follows:

Debtor's expedited motion to approve bid proceedures for sale of substatially all of debtor's assets free and clear of leins

Debtor's expedited motion to approve bid proceedures for sale of subtiantially all of debtor's assets free and clear of leins

Debtor's motion for expedited heaing of motions filed by debtor on January 2, 2008

and Debtor's motion for order setting bar date for claims.

I am not a lawyer and I do not know what these documents mean and exactly how this will impact me. I fear the three year warranty that came with my new XPIO360 engine might be considered a liability which goes away with the sale.

Looks like Textron is buying them in a chapter 11 state that means they get the good with no obligations.

Of course, as a purchaser of a new engine, I am not OK with this and have no idea how to respond.

I would need to hire a laywer to even know if it is advisable to hire a lawyer at this point. Just checking with others that might be going through the same thing to see that the thoughts and plans might be. Perhaps cooperation is in order to protect our investment.
Well, I'm no lawyer either. However, it would seem that you need to weigh the likelihood of a major engine problem in the first three years (unlikely) against the sure thing of $300/hour plus legal fees. Legal fees add up alarmingly fast. If it were me, I'd try to ignore it all and go fly. The engine won't know it doesn't have a warranty! Good luck!
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  #24  
Old 01-09-2009, 06:48 AM
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L.Adamson L.Adamson is offline
 
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Location: KSLC
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexPeterson View Post
Well, I'm no lawyer either. However, it would seem that you need to weigh the likelihood of a major engine problem in the first three years (unlikely) against the sure thing of $300/hour plus legal fees. Legal fees add up alarmingly fast. If it were me, I'd try to ignore it all and go fly. The engine won't know it doesn't have a warranty! Good luck!
I was thinking the same, last evening, when I read the poster's question. My "then new" Lycoming is now "far" out of warrenty, now that it's flying. It just doesn't bother me. Lyc did pay for a piston pin check, under an 1998 AD which amounted to about $600. Turns out the pins were the proper ones all along.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
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  #25  
Old 01-09-2009, 07:36 AM
rgbewley rgbewley is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 202
Default Incompatible Parts for Superior Engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by whifof100ll View Post
As far as post warranty support, anybody know if there are there many Lyco or ECi parts that will not fit on a Superior roller tappet engine?
Dale:
The only parts that you cannot supply your engine with from either Lycoming or ECI are the roller tappets/camshaft.

The Superior roller tappets were a unique design to the company. The set screw method of ensuring the tappet did not rotate in the case was developed so that Superior could make minor modifications to their existing cases and install roller tappets. The sole supplier of Superior's tappets does not make them anymore (I think Thielert was the actual manufacturer) , and Superior has no stock.

Unfortunately, you will not be able to put Lycoming roller tappets into your engine as a direct replacement because Lycoming's method of securing the tappets is significantly different (they rebored the cases with squared ports to prohibit the lifter from rotating.) I haven't measured, but I think diameter of the Lycoming roller tappet may also be different.

Someone could develop an aftermarket tappet for those engines, but with only 600-750 Superior engines in the field the cost of development and the liability factors may make the ROI of that option too much of a financial risk for anyone to take on.

If you have to replace the tappets and want to keep the engine as a roller tappet engine, you will have to replace the crankcases/camshaft/tappets and probably the pushrods with new components from Lycoming. There may be an option available to convert the Superior roller tappet engines back to flat tappet engines. This would be the most cost effective solution for you.

Hope this information is helpful, if somewhat speculative.
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  #26  
Old 01-09-2009, 08:03 AM
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Brantel Brantel is offline
 
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Man I feel sorry for anyone that had a deposit placed on any Superior engines. Sure hope nobody is left in this situation. This brings back some horror stories I remember reading about during the "Direct To Avionics" fiasco
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  #27  
Old 01-09-2009, 08:34 AM
whifof100ll whifof100ll is offline
 
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Unhappy Thanks for your responses

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexPeterson View Post
Well, I'm no lawyer either. However, it would seem that you need to weigh the likelihood of a major engine problem in the first three years (unlikely) against the sure thing of $300/hour plus legal fees. Legal fees add up alarmingly fast. If it were me, I'd try to ignore it all and go fly. The engine won't know it doesn't have a warranty! Good luck!
Alex,

My experience is that machines do know when they are out of warranty and sometime react in a not so good way. To avoid problems, I won't mention anything around my airplane so the engine will continue to remain ignorant of it's warranty status and hopefully nothing bad will happen. Seriously, I certainly am not about to spend money to hire a lawyer and I do not really think there is anything we we can do short of taking care of our engines properly. I posted because I have a pile of documentation that suggest quick action if action is planned. I find when recieving a bunch of intimidating paperwork that I do not understand, it is very tempting to do nothing, which is what I will probably do in this case. I wrote the post in hopes that someone smarter than myself on legal issues (which should be easy to find) will have more insight. Your suggestion to go fly is certainly the best advice I have so far and I will certainly folllow it.


Rhonda,
Thanks fo the info. I hope the camshaft and tappets will last a long time and I expect they will. It sounds like in any case, there is probably a way to support the engine long into the future. I appreciate your insight.
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  #28  
Old 01-09-2009, 09:50 PM
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lluciani lluciani is offline
 
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I have a Superior IO-360. It is an absolutely beautiful and strong engine. My warranty expired without there ever being a hint of trouble.

Superior going out of business would be easier to take if they didn't make such great products.

Rhonda, also thanks for the info on the tappets.

Luis Luciani - RV8
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  #29  
Old 03-08-2009, 08:35 AM
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Scream Scream is offline
 
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Question Why???

I know there is just asking for speculation, but why did it all fall apart? Was it the problems with Thielert, the current economy, demand for parts or engines? Why did a company that put out good products fail?
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  #30  
Old 03-08-2009, 11:58 AM
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Default

Anti-trust in process with the Lycoming acquisition too. Might not get bought by them after all. I would speculate that it has to do with Therihart, but who knows really. Why were they bought in the first place? Were they every really making money?
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