Panel Upgrade - for a buyer not a builder

[jraymond4321]

Hi All,

I recently purchased a RV-6a. I use it quite a bit for business, and am thinking about upgrading the panel so I can train for my instrument rating (no time soon, in a year or so). I feel that I would be able to use it more consistently if both it and I were IFR rated. As it stands now, I am leary of overnight trips when the weather looks iffy (ie. I probably will drive tomorrow).

I have no experience building RV's or any other plane.

I'd like to upgrade the GPS from a Garmin 250 to possibly a 430, add a 2nd comm radio, install a EFIS (Dynon D10a or similar) and install an autopilot. The panel does not currently have a AI or DG.

I believe this is going to require repacing the current panel (due to the existing layout of the instruments- I would have to change some of the engine gauges to dual gauges, and downsize a couple of the existing instruments (VSI - Tach) to 2 1/4 if I was going to use the existing panel)

Any thoughts on the process? Should I just try and find an avionics shop to do it? Should I try to find an experienced builder willing to help me do it myself? Any thoughts on how much time a project like that would take? I would hate to start something myself and have it drag on for months and months.

Thanks in advance.

[robertahegy]

You could get a blank panel from Van's, have a good avionics shop lay out the new prospective panel using proposed new items and incorporating some of your existing equipment. The panel could be built up by the avionics shop and when ready, installed in your plane. That way you can fly up to the last minute with your old panel intact, and take the plane to the shop for a shorter layup, while they install the new panel, transfer existing equipment, and wire it in.

JMHO

Roberta

[Bob Axsom]

It is a stinking miserable job that can go so bad you wouldn't believe it. I did my own from scratch and it came out great but there was a lot of careful planning work including selections from a broad range of options for implementing even the most basic functions. I drew up a wiring diagram/schematic for my airplane when I built it but many people do not and the ones that do, often do not maintain them as the implementation changes. In other words if the builder gave you a diagram chances are it is obsolete. A fellow from a company named Steinair (I may have the spelling wrong) sent me a message recently after I had advised builders to tough it out and build their own panel. He said you would not believe some of the really bad panels that come into his shop after people have given up on them. He said some of them are so bad they have to virtually strip down to the bare panel and start over. Recent experience with another fellow's panel gave more appreciation for what the guy told me in the message.

Maybe if your RV has a tip up canopy it is more practicle but if it is a slider with the panel riveted to the upper fuselage skin up under the windshield you are going to have major surgery or some creative engineering to "replace" the panel by attaching segmented panels to the old panel that is cutout to function as a mounting frame. The panel shops probably have some experience with this but you will have some detail work to do to let them know your requirements exactly so they can work with some efficiency and with some confidence they are going to give you what you want.

I built my panel without an approach approved GPS and now every time I plan a trip I have to sweat out whether they have a ILS, LOC, LDA, or VOR approach that doesn't require GPS, DME or ADF. I have had my instrument rating for over 20 years but the transition to GPS based approaches is far enough along that if you don't have an approach approved GPS it is starting to get awkward and it will only get worse. I recomment that you get it if you go to the panel upgrade.

I have a vacuum pump and the conventional attitude indicator and DG. I saw the new instrument that Tru Trak is coming out with to replace the AI with its own backup battery and as much as I have defended the old systems of suck and blow machines I would never build another panel that depended on a vacuum pump. I recommend you give this a lot of thought.

The plane NEEDS an autopilot to fly IFR. This is critical.

I have tubes coming to the instrument panel to measure pressures, etc. directly. If I were doing it again I would use more transducers and just bring wires into the cockpit. This one is not so important, just something to consider.

The panel is a MAJOR part of the airplane and your comment about not wanting the replacement process to drag on for months makes me think you are in for a shock.
Bob Axsom

[dav1111]

I also was an RV-6A owner who wanted to upgrade his panel. I first went with the TruTrak Autopilot (two axis) and the install was not a big thing. The wing leveler servo mounted under the seat and the altitude hold servo mounted at the elevator bellcrank.

After the glass panels came out I really wanted to go with an all glass panel and when Van's started taking orders for the RV-10 I placed mine on the first day.

I am having Stein Bunch at SteinAir build my RV-10 panel and it was on display at Oshkosh 2005 (minus the overlay and switches/breakers, which had not yet been done). I picture of the Oshkosh 2005 panel with just the instruments installed is on SteinAir's web site

http://www.steinair.com/panels.htm

with the final panel "Coming Soon".

What I would recommend is that you go to

http://www.epanelbuilder.com/legacy/

build a picture of your panel as it now exists. Click on the print screen button of your keyboard. Open an MS word document and hit control V on your keyboard. This will insert the picture you just built into the MS Word Document and print the MS Word document. Save such document for later use and then open a new MS Word blank document. Go back to epanelbuilder and build a new version of your new RV-6A panel using the instruments you currently have in your existing panel and adding the layout you want in your new panel with the new instruments. Once you have the new panel built hit print screen and then insert the new panel in the blank MS Word documnent, print and save as above.

On the MS Word document with your new panel add a message to Stein Bunch at SteinAir as to the existing instruments you have that you want to use in your new panel and save again.

FYI: Once you close the epanel builder web site it will save your build so that when you open it again the last build is displayed.

You can then send Stein Bunch an e-mail at stein@steinair.com asking Stein to give you a quote for the purchase of the new instruments you need as well as building the panel for you, and attach the MS Word "new panel" document to such e-mail.

You can order a new blank RV-6A panel from Van's and have it drop shipped to SteinAir and when Stein finishes with the panel build he will ship you the panel with all the switches, breakers, and new instruments installed in the panel. All you have to do then is remove the old instruments you are going to put in the new panel, insert and hook up the wires, etc. that Stein already has ready for you in the new panel and then remove the old panel and the new panel is ready for install.

FYI: I have no relationship with SteinAir OTHER than being one of their many really happy customers.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Russ Daves
N710RV (RV-10 on gear)
N65RV (RV-6A Sold)

[jraymond4321]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

If I was to have Stein or someone pre-fab the panel with the instruments installed, what kind of job would it be to pull the old panel and install the new one (time wise). Does anybody have an idea of a rough estimate? ie. Is it an 8 hour job, or an 80 hour job?

TIA
James

[Bob Axsom]

The cockpit type and installation method are the major things involved. The most difficult will be a slider with a riveted in panel. I put my panel in with screws and platenuts with the thought that some day I would have to get it out again. All of the interfacing wires and tubes have to be marked so they can be reinstalled. I personally would look at it more as a calendar time event than a workhour task. There is going to be a lot of care and thinking and probably some runs to the tool store to get the job done. I would think you could do it carefully in a month. If you could fly in somewhere and have the modifier do all the work, I think 80 hours is probably in the ball park.

Bob Axsom

[Jconard]

I will second the Steinair reference...and I am a low budget builder.

Stein has the capability to take your layout and render it in CAD. He has taken measurements of every device which will go into the panel and can ensure clearance.

Recently they started having panels laser cut by a partner, directly from the CAD drawing. I personally cannot recomend a better shop in terms of real-world advose and support.

Stein actually helped me stay in my budget, which is very small...he will not push over expensive stuff.

I owned a plane for a few years before I started building, and I can say that Steinair is the best aviation vendor I have dealt with, and that goes for Stein, Jed, Doug, and everyone else who works there.

[jraymond4321]

Thanks Bob.

That's the kind of answer I was looking for. I really did not have any idea of how long it would take.

Best Regards,
James