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09-20-2008, 11:06 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 1,095
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Hey Mike...
I'm in the middle of doing my wiring (dual Pmag setup), and I've been pondering your problem. One thing that I noticed is that there are many different ways to wire 2 Pmags...or 1 Pmag and 1 Emag...or 2 Emags. Lots of variables. Not sure about what you checked today when you looked over your installation, but I didn't read where you actually looked at your circuit.
It sounds like your quality of wiring is fine, but maybe you have the wires hooked up incorrectly. If you had your Emag wired like a Pmag, and your Pmag wired like your Emag, it would die during your Mag check.
I spent the better half of an hour today making sure I had the right wires going to the right pins on the pack of my switches. If you labled your wires correctly (or if they're color coded) it should be easy to write up a quick wiring diagram of your setup. Then again, maybe it's too late for that if you've given up.
But after 8 years of Avionics Tech work in the Navy, I can tell you that until you read each wire end-to-end (unconnected), and then read it to ground to make sure it's not shorting, you'll never know for sure. Just looking at the wires in the ends of connectors isn't enough! Chasing wires is a pain to some, but some of us rather like it!
Either way, it doesn't sound like you've looked at everything. My guess is you don't have a short to ground, but you're wiring isn't correct. My apologies if you have checked this angle...if so, then belay my last.
__________________
Sonny W
Boise, Idaho
RV-7A Flying!
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09-21-2008, 11:00 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Corvallis Oregon
Posts: 3,547
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I would agree
In that I had mine wired incorrectly at first too...It was one of those "How did i manage to screw that up?" type deals..
But I did have my wires landed wrong on the connector.
Frank
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09-21-2008, 04:43 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sedro Wooley, WA
Posts: 147
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wired right or wrong
Sonny,
If you follow the wiring diagram in the Emagair instructions I don't see how you could wire those puppies up any other way than the right way. Look at the diagram on page 21 of the instructions. Pretty simple. 4 toggle switches, 2 per mag, 1 for power, 1 for p-lead. What could be more simple than that.
I did use colored wire, aircraft grade, 18 gauge.
Anyway it is all over anyway. I completely removed the P/E mags from my plane today.
Thanks for the advice but it doesn't matter anymore for my case.
I will be sending the mags back to Emagair for the latest upgrades and ask them at that time if they find anything wrong with the P mag. I just think it is dead, probably a circuit board or something.
Hey if I am wrong, it happens all the time, I will be the first to admit it. But I can't see what I did wrong in this case.
Mike Ice
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09-21-2008, 07:16 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 1,095
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Hi Mike,
I didn't know you were using the 4-switches method, as per the Emagair installation instructions. I'm going to use a DPDT switch for each Pmag (2-10 types, I think) as per the Aerolectric connection.
If you can, let us know what Emagair tells you about your Pmag...I'm interested to hear what they have to say. Thanks.
__________________
Sonny W
Boise, Idaho
RV-7A Flying!
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09-22-2008, 06:48 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Gulf Breeze, FL
Posts: 408
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Sonny,
I'm not sure if you are aware, but Bob Nuckolls changed his recommendation on wiring PMAGS. After discussing this issue with the Emagair folks he recommends wiring per their instructions. It seems that the units perform a self test when power is initially supplied, but only when the P-Leads are grounded. If the P-Lead is undgrounded the test isn't conducted. With Bob's initial wiring with a progressive switch (2-10) the units were powered simultaneously as the P-leads were ungrounded. I rewired and removed the 2-10 switches based on this information. I now am using 1-3 switches on each individual P-Lead. For now I am leaving the circuit with direct feeds from my fuse blocks to the P-mags and will remove the fuse(s) for any maintenance test etc. I have the series 114s.
__________________
Rocky McKiernan
Navarre, FL
N767JM RV-7 Flying
N1011D (res) RV-10 Building
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09-22-2008, 08:25 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
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Rocky,
You are correct; Bob did remove his recommendation of using the S700-2-10 switch after talking with Emagair.
It turned out that following Bob's recommendation caused many E/P-mags to loose their timing marks, including one of mine. This switch-ology would occasionally cause the E/P-mags to take the current crank position and use it as TDC, thus changing the timing.
Emagair has since re-written the firmware, eliminating this problem. That said, Emagair still does not recommend wiring them per Bob's Z-33 drawing. However, I have not changed my wiring and continue to use the S700-2-10 switches and have not had a single issue in over 200 hours since upgrading the firmware in both P-mags. (Contact Emagair for details, version numbers, etc.)
Let me make this clear, I highly recommend you wire your E/P-mags per Emaigair's recommendation. In other words, do as I say, not as I do.
I realize I could potentially have a problem as a result of my wiring, Emagair is aware that I have stayed with this wiring, and should I have a problem I will test the ignition in flight, shut off the offending P-mag, land, and address the issue. It also means they may not fix my P-mag under warranty, if it burns up.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
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09-22-2008, 08:48 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 1,095
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Thanks, Rocky and Bill. I wish I would've known this a week ago prior to drilling all the holes in my instrument panel! However, if their firmware addresses the issue, then I'm OK with continuing down this path. Just to get a little more detail, what was the problem before the firmware fix? Did the firmware specifically address the use of the 2-10 switch?
__________________
Sonny W
Boise, Idaho
RV-7A Flying!
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09-22-2008, 09:16 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostpilot28
... Just to get a little more detail, what was the problem before the firmware fix? Did the firmware specifically address the use of the 2-10 switch?
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Verify what I'm going to say with Emagair ...
From what I remember, they used to read the timing mark from volatile memory, and sometimes, not always, when you would do a full mag check with the S700-2-10 switches it would take the current crank position and save it to memory. Thus the lost timing issue.
The software update they released in July of '07 moved the timing mark to non-volatile memory. This change keeps the timing mark from getting overwritten when doing the mag check.
Again, I have to suggest you follow Emagair's wiring diagram.
For informational purposes only, there are some drawings at the bottom of my electrical page which details how I wired my P-mags and the pre-flight check procedure I use.
Another idea I came up with and passed by Emagair was to install another stereo plug in the power line. This would remove the P-mag from the electrical bus but allow me to use a 1/8" stereo plug to attach a 9V battery to the P-mag for hand propping, should I ever leave the master on overnight. Of course I would have to keep a fresh 9V battery and an adapter for the battery to plug into my system, in my flight bag.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
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09-22-2008, 02:16 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. George
Posts: 973
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RE:Wiring those mags
Sonny
To make a real long story short....long ago I decided to use Bob's Z 13/8 as my electrical architecture (version L 06/2006) and to use Emag's dual Pmag setup. Fast forward.....panel done/wires run/mags installed...........Bob makes a visit to the good folks at Emag and therefore makes some changes to the wiring of the Emag's "P" and "E" types....see http://www.aeroelectric.com/
the N version under the Z-diagrams. (12/2007). Plus alot of noise about the Emag products worthiness to be part of any aircraft......I then had discussion's with Brad (even this AM) and the aeroelectric crowd about the good bad and ugly of my now installed wiring scheme.....(to think I said this was going to be short)......To much to detail but......
1. The early version wiring scheme wouldn't allow timing as per the instructions from Emag....so
2. Z 33 was added to allow for this maintenance/hand proping......extra under cowl switch...more complicated wiring....plus some have suggested that this wiring scheme may have contributed to some mag failures....(not fact but maybe......)
3. so the latest N version of Z13/8 has the Pmag wired with the P lead to a
S7001-3 switch and the power lead directly to the main bus or as Bob suggest the endurance bus.
So my choices are .....Keep #1 above...not....I would have to use EMags EICAD to do timing.....Great tool but not as friendly (at least for me being tech challenged in the computer world)as the other ways to time.
Make the change to #2.....again considering the possible problems it created and Bob elimnated it from his Z diagrams so I will not follow that course.
Do #3 above. All the wire are in place....Easy to convert wires to new scheme.....will allow for timing process given by Emag.....but will not be as easy to do a mag check on run up.
Final choice would be to just bite the bullet and rewire as per Emags reccomendations. I have the space on the panel for the two extra switches. The wiring is already in place and could be easily converted to the new wiring set. I would need to buy 4 S700 1-3 switches....(anybody want to buy some very clean low mile S700 2-10 switches)
So what to do? Sonny like you, decision time. I am leaning (no pun intended) to the final choice above. I just hate the thoughts of drilling two new holes in my nicely powder coated panel......I see another thread coming???????
I hope this adds some clarity as you continue this wonderful enterprise we call AIRCRAFT FABRICATION!!!!
Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... paint and all that other stuff getting ready to head to the airport!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Last edited by fstringham7a : 09-22-2008 at 02:34 PM.
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09-22-2008, 02:40 PM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fstringham7a
Do #3 above. All the wire are in place....Easy to convert wires to new scheme.....will allow for timing process given by Emag.....but will not be as easy to do a mag check on run up.
Final choice would be to just bite the bullet and rewire as per Emags reccomendations. I have the space on the panel for the two extra switches. The wiring is already in place and could be easily converted to the new wiring set. I would need to buy 4 S700 1-3 switches....
So what to do? Sonny like you, decision time. I am leaning (no pun intended) to the final choice above. I just hate the thoughts of drilling two new holes in my nicely powder coated panel......I see another thread coming???????
I hope this adds some clarity as you continue this wonderful enterprise we call AIRCRAFT FABRICATION!!!!
Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... paint and all that other stuff getting ready to head to the airport!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
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Sounds like you need a little nudge in the above direction.
DO IT.
There did that help
In all seriousness, the time and $$ involved are totally insignificant in the total picture.
Dont let the "Gottagofly" bug bite you in the rearend.
As to drilling a couple of new holes in your new powder coated panel, Been there, done that. A total non issue, I have added switches, breakers, and indicator light holes with no problem as to damaging the paint. A unibit is the secret here.
Good luck.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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