Learn to stop while you're ahead...

Ok... To begin with, check out this thread to see what I was attempting:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=32421

Now, here we go! I should have just stopped and got someone to come help me... This has been one of those "I think I'll get it this time" and I never do problems... I am afraid I have completely butchered my spar and counterbalance ribs. I made the reinforcing plate like Frank suggested... but when I was putting the shop head on the rivet, it buckled the reinforcing plate, should have seen that one coming. So... I re-made one out of .042... Put it on there, and it worked out ok... but the two original problem rivets STILL would not lay down straight. I just don't get it. Nothing I have tried will get these *******s to set correctly. I've probably drilled these rivets out 20 times over the past 2 days, seriously, no exaggeration...

So I finally let my temper get the best of me... I said to **** with this... I'm leaving them. I am not drilling them out again. Then to top it off, two of the holes I drilled for the reinforcing plate was too low!! So I could set the rivets after setting the retard rivets next to them.... geez... I once again said **** with it, and threw the only 2 cherry rivets I had in there. So, I post my masterpiece of frustration, headache, trial and error, and failure here for all to see. I should have stopped... I should have drug this out 3 days instead of the 2 it has taken me. Now I am likely to have to replace the spar and ribs and everything that is already riveted to them. Somebody shoot me.

In regards to progress, I bet there is a lot of one step forward and two steps back, while building RV's. I built new elevators (as one got smashed). A new horizontal stab (didn't like a non pre-punched skin rivet line). And one new leading edge........before I ever got to the fuse.

Yes, I too had lot's of those same thoughts!!
But it's done now...

L.Adamson --- RV6A

Sometimes it pays to stop and have a beer

Man, that looks painful. I feel your pain. I am only 1 week into my build, and I haven't had any meltdowns yet, but I know they are coming.

I think the biggest challenge is to know when to stop and seek help. I have talked to my tech counselor, and plan to have him, and another builder out right after Airventure.

I can't work on my vstab right now since the spar was damaged in shipping, so I moved on to the rudder. I hope to get all the parts ready for final assembly so I can have these guys inspect my work and work with me on the first round of riveting (after I have already done practice kits, etc.).

Thanks for sharing your lesson. I am sure some of the wizards on this list will offer some good advice.

Dan-

Hang in there! I built an extra half of the HS (which on the -9, with its huge HS, is no cheap proposition) because I didn't like the middle skin rivets at the leading edge, so I feel your pain. You'll get better with practice.

One thing that MIGHT be your problem (at least it was for me on the -9) is that many of the 1/8" rivet callouts were slightly too long. This can very easily lead to tipped over rivets, especially for builders new to riveting and is especially likely on squeezed rivets. It's much better to be trying to set a rivet that is slightly on the short side than once slightly on the long side. If the next size down rivet is too small, you might be wise to invest in a $15 rivet cutter. There are SO many places where I've cut down a rivet that I can't believe I waited until the fuselage before I bought it. It would have saved me a lot of headaches.

Good luck.

What kind of rivet set are you using?

PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032

Dan,

Time to stop and regroup...first it looks like you used countersunk cherry max on a non countersunk hole, it looks that way anyhow. Remove all your bad rivets...step up to the next size rivet as long as you have edge clearance. Start with a lower pressure on your gun...35 to 40 psi to start and make sure your rivet only protrudes 1.5 it's diameter past the edge of the surface. Use the heaviest bucking bar that will fit into he area and focus on holding it parallel as possible..start with a few hits to get it started...this is no time to just hammer away and hope for the best..patience and you will overcome...we have all been there.

Hang in there.We've all made repeat parts for our airplanes. I'ts part of the game.

A couple tips.

1. Don't give up after frusrtration. It can take months to get restarted. Quit for the day and absolutley attack the part next day. make a new one if needed. Make it your mantra. Do something EVERY day!

2. Never drill a hole after 9 pm. To this day I haven't drilled a hole after 9PM that didn't result in an "awe sh*t".

3. Redo as many times as needed. Never settle for frustrated parts. Never! It does get easier the more you build. Amazingly, the second and/or third parts build very quickly and always come out perfect.


Bob

Rocketboy said:

. Amazingly, the second and/or third parts build very quickly and always come out perfect.


Bob

Click to expand...

True - and mostly because you're so intent on not repeating those same mistakes!

Are you squeezing them, or pounding them?

Flying Scotsman said:

Are you squeezing them, or pounding them?

Click to expand...

I've tried both ways... when I'm pounding them, I make sure the bucking bar is perpendicular to the rivet... and tap slow... but it just wont set straight. I've placed an order for another spar and the two ribs... I'm going to rivet the rib to the spar first before I rivet the two ribs together... that should eliminate the problem with not being able to get the squeezer in there straight...

danielhv said:

I've tried both ways... when I'm pounding them, I make sure the bucking bar is perpendicular to the rivet... and tap slow... but it just wont set straight. I've placed an order for another spar and the two ribs... I'm going to rivet the rib to the spar first before I rivet the two ribs together... that should eliminate the problem with not being able to get the squeezer in there straight...

Click to expand...

My first guess would align with a previous poster...rivets are too long (which will make them bend over in a heartbeat). Get yourself one of these

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/averyrivetlengthgauge.php

and check to see if they're too long. Van's plans are not *always* perfectly correct on rivet lengths (e.g., we often end up using 426AD3-4s instead of 3.5s on skins-to-ribs, maybe because two layers of primer make the thickness *just enough* more than would take a 3.5. The opposite is true sometimes, as well. My latest example? The rivets for the rod ends on the bellcrank-to-aileron pushrods. WAY too long, bent over something terrible. Lesson learned.

I assume you're doing this yourself, which takes some practice, when you pound them...it can be hard to make sure that the gun, the rivet and the bar are all in a straight line. Might be time to get a bucking buddy for a while until you get the hang of it, but you will.

The previous poster's advice on turning the gun down was also spot on...too much hammering, especially when doing it single-handed, can make things jump around too much to control.

Don't know if I can add much more than that to what everyone else has said...hang in there.

Clamp it down too...

...another hint which I find useful when rivetting alone, is to ensure the work is clamped down to the bend, held in a vice or whatever. That way you only need to worry about the rivetting and not the work moving around on you at the same time. Seems simple enough, but many is the time I thought I could get away without holding the work securely. It is always easier when clamped down.

Oh, and if you use that offset rivet set; I've found it a major help to duct tape the rivet set to the spring retainer in the position I want. That way it deosn't spin on me while bucking, which has also caused me problems in the past. Actually, I hate that offset rivet set so much I will almost always wait until Jackie can buck for me, no matter how simple the job seems. I just don't get on well with it...

Rocketboy said:

2. Never drill a hole after 9 pm. To this day I haven't drilled a hole after 9PM that didn't result in an "awe sh*t".

Click to expand...

Truer words have never been spoken!

Keep up the work, Daniel. Don't become overly frustrated. There are so many frustrations ahead. Sometimes you just have to laugh it off and grit your teeth when you order new parts. Put it this way: I built my plane for cash (I am not wealthy!) so each penny counted for me. I never, ever regretted buying a new part, even the $200.00 canopy frame that I botched all the Hades and back! It's worth it to know that you know that you know that you did it right.

Believe me, when you look back at your completed airplane all of those frustrations are just a distant, faint memory.

Build on, brother!

Tight spot rivet removal

Instead of butchering up a hole by drilling out a rivet in a tight spot, grind it out. A Dremel tool with an abrasive cut off wheel makes a dandy grinder that you can get in tight spots.

Grind off the head (if not contersunk) or the hammered end (or both) and punch it out. Take time not to gouge the metal around it.

If you can get your squeezer on it, it will push the rivet out without hardly any effort, otherwise - punch.

This might be a good time to make some acquaintances and get some help. I see Denton isn't far away from Little Elm. There are half a dozen builders in Denton, according to the RV White Pages--see the VAF home page, left side listings. May be some folks in other nearby towns, especially on your side of Dallas. One or more of those folks might be happy to come give you a hand and maybe a couple tips. Then you'll also have a resource for other problems that will certainly come up and there will be times where you will certainly want some help, so now is as good a time as any to make contacts.

Couldn't agree more

I had a friend building the tail on his Glastar he was terrified to bashing the rivets on his nice new tail.

So I went over there...I had him amking perfect rivets in 10 minutes..I then showed him how to do those "impossible to get to" rivets using the offset sets.

A couple of hours and he was flying.
Riveting is one of those "how on Earth does anyone do this...Oh thats how..Oh gee this is easy"..deals

Once you got it there will be no stopping you..

Frank