WIDE1-1 vs. WIDE2-1

[Davepar]

So a guy shows up at my door this afternoon out of the blue and gives me a mini tutorial on APRS. He says I've been blasting my position all over Western Washington whenever I go flying. His first suggestion was to put my email address on qrz.com so people can get a hold of me without going to my home.

His second suggestion was to use just a path of WIDE2-1. When I set up my Micro-Trak, I just copied Pete's settings from the original thread. Apparently the WIDE1-1 in there makes all the mountain top digipeaters as well as home-based digipeaters repeat my position. He said using WIDE2-1 would hit all the mountain-top digipeaters, which would be sufficient when you're up at altitude.

And his third suggestion was to get a better transmitter. He said the Tiny/Micro-Trak units stomp on other people's transmissions. I guess Allen will have to comment on that.

I'm going to try making that change next weekend and see if I still get pretty good coverage.

Dave

[petehowell]

Hi Dave,

I wonder if this is just a mountain area thing. I was told not to use "relay" but thought wide n-n was ok.

I do know there are hams that do not like the Microtrak becuse it transmits without checking the frequency first. This seems to be a style thing.

Let us know what you find out.

[Sam Buchanan]

Originally Posted by Davepar

So a guy shows up at my door this afternoon out of the blue and gives me a mini tutorial on APRS. He says I've been blasting my position all over Western Washington whenever I go flying. His first suggestion was to put my email address on qrz.com so people can get a hold of me without going to my home.

His second suggestion was to use just a path of WIDE2-1. Apparently the WIDE1-1 in there makes all the mountain top digipeaters as well as home-based digipeaters repeat my position. He said using WIDE2-1 would hit all the mountain-top digipeaters, which would be sufficient when you're up at altitude.

And his third suggestion was to get a better transmitter. He said the Tiny/Micro-Trak units stomp on other people's transmissions. I guess Allen will have to comment on that.

I'm going to try making that change next weekend and see if I still get pretty good coverage.

Dave

Wow.....don't know if I would have the nerve to walk up to a stranger's door and "tell" them how they are messing up the ham bands.......here in the South that is a good way to get a face-full of buckshot.

Dave, hopefully Allen will weigh in on this matter but as one who has already been slammed by an old-timer ham about how we are destroying the APRS system I can relate to your experience. I totally disagree with the individual's opinion who got on my case since most of his argument was emotional rather than rational. Hopefully the individual who took the time to track you down was sincere about wanting to assist you with your APRS experience.

Let me preface my remarks with this observation. After perusing some ham forums I have come to the realization that many hams are a very surly bunch. There is open hostility, and I mean hostility, on the part of some hams toward those of us who snuck into ham-dom without earning that right by learning Morse code. To these old-timers, the "no-coders" are just a bunch of riff-raff that have no right participating in "their" hobby. (Sorta like LSA pilots aren't real pilots????? )

I don't know if this attitude had any role to play in the visit you enjoyed, but we have to recognize its presence. The fact that we have the audacity as undeserving license holders to operate a tracker from an airplane is just cause for these Keepers of the Faith to straighten us out.

Having said that, I am very open to ways we can be good citizens of the APRS community. If changing our path to WIDE2-1 will provide us the coverage we need, then I will make the change. The insistence on WIDE2-1 for airborne trackers is not universally accepted but does seem to be what the hams in your area consider good practice:

http://www.nwaprs.info/mobilesettings.htm

Perhaps with mountain top digis WIDE2-1 will work well in your area. It remains to be seen whether or not it works well for us flatlanders. The problem is we have no way to monitor realtime how well our packets are making it to the network. Consequently we must use configurations that have the best possible chance of providing good service in whatever environment our planes are flown. One flight can carry us over mountains and wide open spaces in the course of a couple hours. Which settings do we use, the "mountain" config or the "flatland" config? This is a situation the ground-bound APRS users don't have to deal with and possibly haven't considered. I intend to use a configuration that works in the widest possible range of environments because a crippled tracker is worse than no tracker at all.

In regard to the "problem" with the Byonics trackers, that matter has been discussed previously. The only practical way for an airborne tracker to operate is to transmit in the blind as do our trackers. If your tracker waited for a clear frequency before transmitting, since it can hear every tracker within 500 miles, we would most likely never have a chance to send a packet. Even if our unit found an opening in which to transmit, it would butt heads with any other nearby airborne tracker that was doing the same.

The ground-bound APRS'ers are just going to have to live with our blind trackers. We need to use sensible beacon intervals (we are), smartbeaconing (we are), and brief, concise packets (we are).

Until airborne trackers are deemed illegal, we are entitled to use the trackers in our aircraft in keeping with FCC regulations and common sense. I get the sense most hams are intrigued with our airborne trackers and delight in the expansion of the realm. But there are a few vocal malcontents as previously mentioned. I found it interesting the owner of aprs.fi that we all use has discovered us and posted on his blog some very nice comments about airplane trackers:

http://oh7lzb.blogspot.com/2008/03/t...airplanes.html

One more point. If we were broadcasting packets 24/7 I can see where there would be cause for concern about frequency congestion. But consider how many hours each week you are actually using the APRS network. Our usage is a fraction of the total net load. No doubt reasonable hams recognize this fact and will happily invite us to be partners in the APRS system. The ham population is thinning and graying just as the pilot universe, and reasonable hams will recognize that all new members of the service need to be welcomed instead of chastised.

[PaigeHoffart]

Just a few comments:

After perusing some ham forums I have come to the realization that many hams are a very surly bunch. There is open hostility, and I mean hostility, on the part of some hams toward those of us who snuck into ham-dom without earning that right by learning Morse code. To these old-timers, the "no-coders" are just a bunch of riff-raff that have no right participating in "their" hobby.

It is true that there are hams that have that attitude, but I don't think it's reflective of the community as a whole. Heck most of those old timers couldn't even spell APRS. I would say that the majority of hams would welcome new licensees regardless of their interests or qualifications and, as Sam mentioned, most APRS users would welcome airborne APRS stations.

The amateur service is a very valuable resource that is managed by a bunch of volunteers. All of the APRS gateways you guys are using are financed, built, and maintained by volunteers. Frequency coordination is handled by volunteers, testing for licensees is handled by volunteers. Hams provide a valuable public service and have been called upon in virtually every natural disaster in recent history. Yes they are a diverse bunch, but I wouldn't characterize them as a surly bunch.

If someone came to my door and asked that I change my path or beacon interval, I'd get involved with the local organization (most communities have a local club www.arrl.org ) and do what I could to appease them. After all I'm using their gateways and I have no more right to the frequency than they do. Does this mean that one man's opinion sets policy for the entire country? NO; but I'd say if an organization asks you to do something, it's probably a good idea.

As for transmitting in the blind:

It is probably a necessity for airborne APRS, but depending on your settings it could border on intentional interference (which the FCC takes a very dim view of). I'm personally not using APRS in the air yet, but I plan to use a longer beacon interval of 2-5 minutes with smart beaconing. The smart beaconing will take care of the turns, and the longer interval will probably do wonders for relations with the neighbors. I'm also planning on running low (<1W) power levels. One of the rules of the amateur service is to use as little power as necessary for reliable communication. Trial and error will determine how much I'll need but based on other's experience on this forum 300mW seems to be doing the trick.

As far as the path statement:

Wide 1-1 replaced RELAY. The RELAY station was the home station that picked up local packets and relayed them to the distant digi. For aircraft, unless you're out in the middle of nowhere, you probably don't need it. It would probably be safest to just use 2-1 unless experience shows 1-1 is really needed.

Consequently we must use configurations that have the best possible chance of providing good service in whatever environment our planes are flown.

Sam, I respectfully disagree with your use of "must". The fact is our planes fly just fine without trackers. Are they nice? Sure. What will it hurt if you don't get all of your beacons into the system? We're not relying on it, are we? The fact is that a lot of people have spent a lot of time and money building a system, and if someone tells me I'm messing it up, I'll pull the plug.


As far as being "entitled" to something, a ham that just received his ticket is just as entitled as a ham that's been doing it for 50 years. However, in most all cases involving interference, the FCC has taken the stance that existing users and users that have coordinated their operations through volunteer frequency coordinators take priority.

Bottom line, let's be good stewards and avoid giving the RV community a black eye.

My .02,

Paige

[Ron Lee]

Originally Posted by PaigeHoffart

Sam, I respectfully disagree with your use of "must". The fact is our planes fly just fine without trackers. Are they nice? Sure. What will it hurt if you don't get all of your beacons into the system? We're not relying on it, are we?

Paige

Actually APRS offers what may be the best SAR asset on the market now. ELTs are close to worthless. Spot does not transmit frequently enough for RVs. PLBs may be good but don't offer the track feature of Spot and APRS.

According to this site: http://www.nwaprs.info/mobilesettings.htm

"If it flies: WIDE2-1, once every minute or two minutes."

Having typed that, I don't understand the issue at this point. Back to reading.

[PaigeHoffart]

I guess I'm not communicating my point very well. We're relying on the kindness of strangers to build a ground based tracking network as part of their hobby. The location of the nodes is not controlled by any one organization. The coverage is pretty good, but certainly not perfect. They've been operating this network for a number of years. It was designed to track objects on the ground. If someone who played a part in creating this network tells me that I'm doing something that is disturbing it, I'll quit.

Similarly I'll try to be as good a neighbor as possible. If I'm just traveling in a straight line, I don't need to transmit my position every 30 seconds. Yes we're covering a lot of ground, but if I'm not maneuvering, who cares (unless you're using it for SAR)? If I do maneuver, I will rely on smart beaconing to report my position more often.

While APRS is certainly another tool in the SAR puzzle, it isn't designed for that. There isn't even a guarantee that you will be within its coverage if you need it. If there is truly a need for a better SAR system, we should probably implement ADS-B. Rather than look a gift horse in the mouth, I'll rely on trusted procedures that have been established for commercial, military, and GA traffic. File a flight plan, use flight following, etc...

I'm not saying don't use APRS to enhance safety; I'm saying don't abuse the system day to day because you want the info available "just in case". [I'll leave the definition of abuse up to the organizations that built and maintain the network]. If you truly think you need APRS for SAR, then maybe we should write some software for the trackers that would enable a switch to transmit an emergency beacon at very short intervals with as high a power as possible to as many stations as possible. (I know the emergency beacon capability exists, but I don't know if it changes the interval, and I certainly haven't seen anything on the power level or path options). Yes this would require some action on the part of the pilot, but if I don't realize that I'm about to impact the terrain, then the likelihood of my survival is pretty low IMHO.



Paige

[Ron Lee]

Paige, you must not fly where I do. First off flight plans are close to worthless. I file 00V to KPGA. What route? Or I change my path to sightsee. Then they have to comb thousands of square miles to find me. Can you say Steve Fossett?

Then you suggest that ADS-B is a potential solution. Got to tell you that this shows how many people are uninformed (probably misled) about ADS-B. That is not your fault. Much of that is due to the hype promulgated by the FAA and AOPA and others. Then most people did not read and comprehend the ADS-B Out NPRM.

First it may cost you up to $17,000 to install it.

Then there is no projected improvement in coverage over the current radar system (I asked the FAA about it). So where I need radar/ADS-B coverage it does not exist and there are no concrete plans to fill the gaps.

Where I fly I sometimes don't have flight following coverage even as high as I fly. Fly low like some do and coverage diminishes mucho more. So I will do everything I can to kill an ADS-B Out mandate on GA.

If ONE person complaining about RV use of APRS shuts it down then perhaps there are other issues. If we can coexist...fine. Provide specifics on what can be done. Wide 2-1? I don't understand what that means vs Wide 1-1.

The fact that APRS may not have an emergency mode like an ELT or PLB does not diminish the usefulness of it. Then there is the secondary mode in some units that may be usable for emergency use. Can't say for sure.

I have to register my PLB. That is good. Why can't we also register our APRS track with SAR assets? Or at the least, someone who knows about us can provide that info if we go missing.

In conclusion, I am new to this and may be just an uninformed on important info as others are on ADS-B.

[Sam Buchanan]

Got a gap in the schedule today, nice weather, and a lunch invite at MSL, so I'm on the way to the airport. I'm going to change the tracker config to WIDE2-1 and see how it works for the lunch flight. You can watch if you wish, should be departing DCU between 11:30-11:45 CST:

http://aprs.fi/?call=N399SB&mt=m&z=10&timerange=3600

I have an iGate here at home that usually snags a bunch of my packets when the plane is within 75 miles but I'm going to leave the iGate disabled so we can get a better sense of how the digis are picking up the WIDE2-1 path.

We'll talk this afternoon......

[VHS]

I just came back from the Hamvention in Dayton, Ohio. I saw a guy with a Van's RV tee-shirt, and talked to a couple of RV builders. You guys are everywhere!

As far as courtesy, I would be reluctant to accept advice about courtesy from someone who shows up unannounced on your door....That being said, he may have a few good points ( Although I personally would have set he hounds on him!)

First, send only the power you need. Second, use a Path that will give you performance on the ground and in the air. When we CAP people come looking for you, we would like to know where to look. The ham-taliban guy that showed up at your door may not understand the full implications of APRS for aircraft. Third, Don't send too frequently. Its not polite to tie up the network. Including your e-mail in the comments field is a good idea, and I recommend it.

Now, this gent takes the position that you should get a "better" transmitter. The implication being that you should use a transmitter that monitors the frequency before transmitting. At altitude, this will essentially prevent you from sending any transmissions, ever, as Paige pointed out. ( oh yes, if he shows up will you please tell him I said "screw you you pinko left handed *******" , but try to say it in a loving, and non-judgmental way.....)

The idea that you will wait for a "clear" time to transmit is silly. At altitude, you will receive signals from (potentially) thousands of miles away. These signals are not heard by ground stations or other mountaintop digipeaters, but will keep you from sending. You would not for instance, ever receive the signal of a transmitter that is on the other side of a mountaing from you, so these in no way to know if they are transmitting in an attempt to contact the same digipeater you are.

In any given area, waiting to transmit until the air is clear will result in everyone transmitting nearly simultaneously, or nearly so. This ham needs to think it through.

In an ideal world, I would ask each of you to set up your own I-Gate, and we can choose our own airborne frequency, free of other hams. Then, switch to the standard frequency when on the ground or flying below terrain.

Many old timer hams are crusty, disfunctional human beings. This is true of the general population, so I will leave it up to you to decide if they are over-represented in the ham community.

Allen
VHS

[GrayHawk]

Originally Posted by VHS

I just came back from the Hamvention in Dayton, Ohio.
XXX snip XXX

In an ideal world, I would ask each of you to set up your own I-Gate, and we can choose our own airborne frequency, free of other hams. Then, switch to the standard frequency when on the ground or flying below terrain.

XXX snip XXX
Allen
VHS

1. What's a good reference for setting up an I-Gate?
2. Switching frequencies would require a frequency agile transmitter and a mode switch?