?I don?t know what he is doing up there?.....ATC Controller

[the_other_dougreeves]

Originally Posted by airguy

I'll agree with that - on my trips into ADS from west Texas I find it easier to file IFR than deal with VFR flight following. VFR staying out of Class B into ADS is a hassle from my direction (MAF or SJT) simply because it's dead on the far side of the class B from my origin requiring me to make many extra miles to stay clear, and if I'm going to be talking to them anyway I might as well make it IFR where they can't conveniently "drop" me if things get busy.

ADS is my home airport and I have to deal with Class B transition frequently. We have surface Class B in about a 180 deg arc, from the NW to the SE.

We normally get only one of three transitions through the Class B:
#1 - Southbound transition: ADS - direct DAL - direct RBD, typically at 2500 ft. This takes us away from the DAL arrivals, that (during flow to the south) come over ADS about 3000 and then arrive DAL rwy 13R/L. If there's flow to the north, we are still separated from DAL arrivals and departures. Rwy 18/36 at DAL is a great landmark since it's paved with blacktop and stands out.

#2 - Westbound Transition: Direct DAL - Direct DFW - then west somewhat on course. DFW overflight is typically 6500. We normally only get this if approach isn't very busy.

#3 - NW Transition: Sometimes you'll get cleared through the N part of the Class B to get in and out of ADS on a NW heading.

Anyway, the point of this is that each Class B has its own favored routes for VFR transition, just as it has its favored IFR arrival routes. These are not intuitively obvious from any chart or any other source that I know of. The routes that are shown on the back of the TACs aren't that useful.

So, you really need local knowledge or controllers that are going to help you in the unfamiliar Class B. In the SoCal area, I doubt you're going to get much help or understanding from the controllers - no fault of theirs, things are just too busy there.

But it kinda chaps my hide that ATC would wonder why you're flying above the Class B. I assume that you are using your transponder with Mode C and flying the appropriate VFR altitude. Other than that, what are you supposed to do? Avoid the Class B entirely like an active restricted area? Do they really want you to go through the Class B when you could go around? Again, it's that local knowledge that might be obvious to them but not to us who aren't local.

I suppose it would be nice if VFR aircraft were able to get some info from ATC about the preferred Class B transition routes - although these are available in some areas - but I don't know how you'd do this.

TODR

[Ron Lee]

Yes I was using Mode C transponder at the appropriate VFR altitude. I attempted to establish flight following well before any issues developed but for reasons that I cannot clearly state, it did not happen.

In retrospect, perhaps my initial call to LA center should have mentioned that I would fly over Class B at 12,500'. Maybe that would help. Maybe not. I am of the opinion that the attitude problem may exist within ATC. If they are too busy then solve that problem.

The ATC cooperation leaving Catalina was better. I was cleared through Class B and when LA approach asked if I could turn westbound to allow an airliner to continue its climb, I did. Minimal deviation on my part and we all played nice. That was not hard.

I can't file IFR so I know of no other option than to request flight following as a "pop up" if that term is correct. I don't use flight plans. Flight following is far more useful and the only way I know of to work cooperatively.

[Dgamble]

Originally Posted by JCFL

As a group we are probably very "independent minded". I think we must all be ever vigilant not to put our "rights" ahead of safety.

If flying in accordance with the posted and charted regulations is being "independent minded" and a risk to safety, my suggestion would be to amend the regulations and charts to remove any possible ambiguity between what is allowed and what is expected/unexpected.

If 10k isn't high enough, then the top of the Class B should be made higher.

I don't consider myself as being "independent minded" when I drive 65 mph in a posted 65 mph zone any more that I consider a VFR altitude above the 10k limit of a Class B to be anything other than routine compliance with existing regulations.

[AZtailwind]

We were just in flying in So Cal with a friend to look at RV6A' to purchase. Flagstaff - Chino -Cable-San Diego-Flagstaff all in one day(and it takes a while in a 182). I have flown with SOCal, PHX and LAS tracon many times but I think So CAL is the best overall. These are guys and gals are good and professional. There is a way to talk on approach to get what you want even VFR. Sound like a pro and preface the initial by "goodmorning" or "goodafternoon" -say what you want fast and clear and you will get what you want almost every time. There was certainly a bit off traffic to look out for within the corridors of SO Cal.
- Some great great pics, Looks like a great trip- Makes me miss the John Muer Trail even more, I need to get up there.

[airguy]

Originally Posted by Dgamble

If 10k isn't high enough, then the top of the Class B should be made higher.

In some places they do - Dallas Class B tops at 11k.

[Ron Lee]

Denver Class B top is at 12,000' I believe but the ground is higher. I fly over it too. When I flew from Ft Pierce FL to Crystal River FL I cruised at 10,500' if I recall correctly. I fly high for safety and operational reasons.

[Jekyll]

Originally Posted by Steve Brown

...I do not view legitimate use of airspace as putting people in danger. In fact, me using it is normal and reasonable. A controller getting an attitude about it is a safety hazard.

I couldn't agree more. Observe the Mode C veil and fly where you want outside of the Class B. If it were immorale, imprudent or unsafe you can be sure the FAA would make it illegal.

Jekyll

[David-aviator]

Originally Posted by Ron Lee

Yes I was using Mode C transponder at the appropriate VFR altitude. I attempted to establish flight following well before any issues developed but for reasons that I cannot clearly state, it did not happen.

In retrospect, perhaps my initial call to LA center should have mentioned that I would fly over Class B at 12,500'. Maybe that would help. Maybe not. I am of the opinion that the attitude problem may exist within ATC. If they are too busy then solve that problem.........

Ron, your photo record of the trip is excellent.....a great travel log for those who can not do it themselves.

Generally speaking, ATC is staffed for the management of IFR traffic, some parts of the country perhaps better than others. VFR flight following is a supplemental benefit for VFR pilots and not available everywhere everyday. It can not be relied upon even after getting into the system - a flight can fall through the cracks when things get busy. I've had it happen enough times, I've stopped using it, especially around busy class B airports. I get a better feeling just avoiding those areas if at all possible rather than being a part of the problem, which is how some controllers view VFR operations when things get really busy.

Flying through the SOCAL area is not fun IFR or VFR, there's simply too much traffic and not enough airspace. The approach into SNA from the east going by the Riverside area at 6000 feet was always an attention getter on a VFR day. After a few near misses, I started slowing from 250 much earlier than required simply to have a better chance to see and avoid if necessary. The controllers can not point out every VFR flight on their scope. Departing on such a day one can not relax until out of FL180. The area is a **** shoot for pilots when its clear, IMHO.

Your experience is not unusual and probably more the norm than not. Overall, you did a good job - you did not get run over or run into anyone.

[John Clark]

Originally Posted by David-aviator

Flying through the SOCAL area is not fun IFR or VFR, there's simply too much traffic and not enough airspace. The approach into SNA from the east going by the Riverside area at 6000 feet was always an attention getter on a VFR day. After a few near misses, I started slowing from 250 much earlier than required simply to have a better chance to see and avoid if necessary. The controllers can not point out every VFR flight on their scope. Departing on such a day one can not relax until out of FL180. The area is a **** shoot for pilots when its clear, IMHO.

David, I am reminded of an old line from my days on the line at a regional based at LAX. "The best weather for flying in the basin is an 800 ft. ceiling and a mile viz."

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

[JCFL]

Originally Posted by Dgamble

If flying in accordance with the posted and charted regulations is being "independent minded" and a risk to safety, my suggestion would be to amend the regulations and charts to remove any possible ambiguity between what is allowed and what is expected/unexpected.

If 10k isn't high enough, then the top of the Class B should be made higher.

I don't consider myself as being "independent minded" when I drive 65 mph in a posted 65 mph zone any more that I consider a VFR altitude above the 10k limit of a Class B to be anything other than routine compliance with existing regulations.

My post was intended to be a gentle reminder that one must often consider more than the regulations to achieve a prudent level of safety. Good judgement often dictates higher minimums than do the FAR's. You can drive your car at 65mph in a hard driving rain and be within the speed limit - but it might not be good judgement. You can probably legally ride your bicycle on a lot of busy streets at rush hour - but it might not be prudent. The brand new IFR pilot can fly right into the busiest airport and right down to published minimums with wet ink on his ticket and be legal - but I would caution against that too.

I have a problem only with "I will fly where I will fly" not with the legal use of airspace and I don't suggest that one should never overfly class B airspace.

Just trying to share some of what I have learned in 43 years and 25K hours. No offense intended.