Yeah, it's Ugly....But is it OK?

[captainron]

I don't recall any rivets in that area that couldn't be squeezed. Maybe you need more squeezer yokes.

[jsharkey]

They look strong to me - assuming the shop head is well set and not cleated. It's possible to weaken the joint by drilling out and replacing if it doesn't go well. I'd only replace if you're worried about looks.

Jim Sharkey
RV6 - Wiring

BTW - Keep pressure on the rivet head until the gun has come to a complete stop. Smileys can be caused by the unexpected and random strike that the gun gives if you still have your finger on the trigger as you lift off the head.

[Captain_John]

Those smileys were created because the rivet set was not perpendicular to the rivet.

Personally, those rivets are "drillahs"! Take them out and redo.

It is WAAAAY easier to do it now than to do it later.

CJ

[RVNineA]

I wish I could tell you if those rivets are ok, I don't know. I don't know how strong the banged-up rivet is, and I don't know what the strength requirement for THAT particular rivet is. Vans may know, but I doubt any of us know. However, if I had to guess, I'd say no problem whatsoever, because if the design was so marginal that a few smiley rivets were a problem, then these RVs would be dropping like flies.

Nevertheless, I voted to replace it; the one in the close-up shot would bug me enough that I would either replace it, or if appropriate, drill a hole nearby and put in another one (need to carefully check drawings for potential interference before doing that).

The damage I see looks like what I get when I don't hold the gun firmly and straight against the rivet. It looks like the rivet set has bounced. Make sure you are holding the gun firmly in position until the noise stops completely, not just until you release the trigger.

John

[BlackRV7]

Tom, I'm going to forgo advice on drilling out versus not drilling out as previous posters have covered pretty much all relevant issues. Hints on driving those AN4's. Of course keep your gun vertical and apply enough pressure to keep the gun from walking, experiment with air pressure, too little and you have to keep your gun hammering away thereby increasing your likelihood for walking, too much and it will want to bounce. Another point is experiment with bucking bar size, a little heavier one just might form that shop head a little quicker. Experiment, vertical gun, sweet spot air pressure and correct bucking bar weight will make bucking no different that that pneumatic squeezer.

With that said, when I was building (I like the right to that), you could had have my guns but you would have had to pull my pneumatic squeezer from my cold, head hands.

[Captain Avgas]

If you finish your RV it will ultimately represent a very substantial financial investment. Believe me, it will end up costing tons more money than you ever thought possible. And it will cost the same small fortune whether the plane is well constructed...or a pile of junk.

Buy a universal rivet removal tool from Avery and you can take those rivets out without fear of oversizing the holes. And you'll get a LOT more use out of the tool down the track.....an excellent investment.

[Rick6a]

Originally Posted by TomAniello

.... Should I drill these out and try again, or build on? Thanks for the straight advice.

Originally Posted by az_gila......Would you fly on a Boeing if it's rivets looked like that?...gil A

Tom,

You invited straight advice and at first I hesitated to do so but then my friend Gil stepped in and said it first. A bit of background. When I hired on at McDonnell Aircraft...long before it became Boeing and even before Douglas was added....new hires had to attend 12 weeks of sheet metal school at minimum wage before being turned loose on the production floor. It was astounding how many people did not make it through those 12 weeks of intensive sheet metal training. Some people simply cannot drill a straight hole. Those that remained were expected to produce perfect rivets 100% of the time. There is no way, I repeat, no way ANY quality control inspector on the payroll would ever sign off on at least four of the rivets in your bottom picture, much less the ever present Navy/Air Force liason office overseeing the company and its production practices. Without question, those defective rivets would be drilled out and replaced. On my RV's....I have on several occasions drilled out the same rivet hole over and over again until the rivet is finally made acceptable. So what if at times you have to bring the hole up a size.....or even two? You just do it. Those rivets shown in your photos are very easy to replace without damage...they are through a steel part. Drilling out and replacing rivets is an essential skill and I suggest you get really good at it.

Sometimes, I am troubled by the "Build On!" mentality that Van's seems to promote. The oft repeated mantra gives perfect license for some builders to settle for producing marginal work. The popular if somewhat misleading idea that you will cause more damage by removing defective rivets than replacing is rooted more as a pragmatic business decision by Van's in part to help move more kits out the door. Part of Van's genius is knowing that his designs must meet the lowest quality construction skill coupled with very basic tools possessed of the more challenged homebuilder. That is a very good thing for sure. Still, if I told any inspector I was going to leave such rivets in place....I can assure you one of two things was certain to follow. Either my immediate supervisor would have a "chat" with me prior to replacing the rivets or I would be escorted out the factory gate. Very high quality is rightly demanded by the customer and the taxpayer and is strictly enforced. Gil was correct....you will never see those rivets leave the factory on a Boeing produced aircraft. That is the way it is in the production world, but NOT the way it is in garage built experimental aviation. I have always said I would have far more confidence buying a random certificated spam can than buying a random experimental because at least with production aircraft, you know a minimum level of quality is guaranteed.....by the producing company and its FAA oversight. As a potential buyer of your aircraft.....if one saw those rivets such as they are...why would they not assume they could expect the same level of quality to be found elsewhere on your airplane? Your workmanship is on display here. You are free to build as you choose and only YOU can decide what is right for you.

In the end, it is not likely your airplane is going to fall from the sky because of those bad rivets, but their obvious presence does speak volumes about the overall quality you expect from yourself and what you are willing to settle for now and later in the construction process. I anticipate that some other builders will surely disagree with my OPINION and may well feel quite differently about this and other subjects. That's what a forum is all about. Straight talk....sometimes it ain't pretty.

[TomAniello]

I really want to thank the VAF community for taking time away from your own projects to help me keep moving on mine. You all posted some excellent advice, and I greatly appreciate all of it.

I'm going to drill them out and try again. If I don't get comfortable drilling out rivets at some point, then I'm never going to get through the whole project.

And, I'm going to start paying more attention to my "gut instinct". If it doesn't look good to me, then it should be redone to the level which I am not only proud to show others, but feel safe strapping on and going flying.

Thanks, everyone!

Tom

[RV8Squaz]

Hello Tom,
You have to strike a balance between "build-on" and removing bad rivets. In some regards I agree with Rick. I have visited the Raytheon factory many many times. The tiniest flaws get rejected. In my opinion, if the rivets are easy to get to, replace them. If you're not confident in replacing rivets, get some scrap metal, rivet 20 or 30 "bad" rivets and drill every one of them out and install new rivets. Try some on slightly enlarged holes, grossly enlarged holes and oblong holes. You'll soon get a feel for what you can and can't do and when a larger rivet is required or when more damage than good will be done. There are some rivets that are so difficult to access, you'll be glad to get a rivet in the hole no matter how "ugly" it looks as long as it is structurally sound!

Tom, you have 4 out of 10 "ugly" rivets, which is a 60% batting average. The airplane will not fall out of the sky because of those rivets. But do practice drilling out rivets, get your confidence up, and replace those 4 rivets. You'll feel better about it anyway. three things may be causing you to produce rivets with smileys: 1) Not square on the rivet with the rivet gun or squeezer, 2) not holding enough forward pressure on the gun with your hand, or 3) to much air pressure on the gun causing the rivet set to bounce so much you can't overcome it with forward pressure on the gun with your hand.

I once had to drill out a bunch a rivets, maybe a hundred, maybe two hundred or so. When I was building my "canoe" while still in the jig, I had an air hose failure. The fitting came off the hose and almost took out my face. The impact of the hose on the forward side skin put a significant "outty" dent. I thought about pushing the dent back in and then filling but in my heart, I knew that wasn't acceptable. So I drilled out all those rivets and replaced the skin. Thank goodness for pre-punched skins! After all that drilling and riveting, there were only two that required a larger rivet. So my point is that sometime during the course of the project you will have to put your drilling skills to the test. Good luck and email or call if you have further questions.

Jerry
RV-8 N84JE
190 fun-filled hours, doing first condition inspection

[az_gila]

Tom... this might help in your drilling out of the rivets....

http://home.earthlink.net/~gilalex/Rivet/

As a previous poster mentioned, a back-up might be needed during the punching out operation...

gil A