kit prototype?

[Mel]

Originally Posted by BobMoe

If I build an RV12 in 2010 will it be an:
A- Experimental Built and I have the repairman's certificate. A&P does annual
B- S-LSA and I can repair after 16 hour course. 'Only approved components'
C- E-LSA I can annual and use any motor, panel, Etc.

A/ It will be experimental. Maybe experimental light-sport, maybe experimental amateur-built. You may or may not have repairman certificate.
B/ It will NOT be S-LSA if you build it. 16 hour course is only for inspection, not maintenance.
C/ If it is E-LSA, you can do maintenance, not annual condition inspection unless you have the I-repairman certificate.
Way too many unknowns!

[BobMoe]

Originally Posted by Mel

A/ It will be experimental. Maybe experimental light-sport, maybe experimental amateur-built. You may or may not have repairman certificate.
B/ It will NOT be S-LSA if you build it. 16 hour course is only for inspection, not maintenance.
C/ If it is E-LSA, you can do maintenance, not annual condition inspection unless you have the I-repairman certificate.
Way too many unknowns!

Sorry for the confusion. Let me try one more time, then I'll wait till 2-2008.

I thought some of the S-LSA kits could be 90% factory built. Only approved components, engines, etc. The 16 hour course allowed the OWNER to repair and annual HIS plane. If the plane is sold, the new owner can take the 16 hour course and do his own repairs and annual.The 100 hour course allows service on all LSA's for a fee, like an AP/IA.

If the RV12 or Zenith or one-off is built, can it be registered as a E-LSA after 2-2008. Using the components of our choice and the owner still get the 16 hour repairman's certificate.

I think the RV12 is going to be another Expermental that can be flown by a Light Sport Pilot, but I hope I'm wrong.

Thanks,
Bob

Here is the Ask the Expert answer I read:

Question :
I have completed the 16 hour ELSA inspection course and I'm thinking about purchasing a ELSA that was licensed as ELSA by the builder. As the second owner, not the builder, of this aircraft can I do my own maintance and annual inspection?

Answer :
Yes, you can. There is no restriction on who does the maintenance, repair, or modification to an ELSA, so you can do all these things regardless of whether you are the builder or not. You do not need any FAA certificate of any kind in order to do maintenance, repair, or modification on an ELSA.

Since you have completed the LSA Repairman Inspection course for airplanes, you can apply to have your new ELSA added to your inspection certificate. Once the aircraft is listed on your repairman certificate, you are allowed to do the condition inspection each year. You do not have to be the builder. You simply have to have successfully completed the 16 hour training course for LSA Repairman Inspection.

[westexflyboy]

Originally Posted by BobMoe

If I build an RV12 in 2010 will it be an:
A- Experimental Built and I have the repairman's certificate. A&P does annual
B- S-LSA and I can repair after 16 hour course. 'Only approved components'
C- E-LSA I can annual and use any motor, panel, Etc.

Bob, I'm afraid your assumptions are in error. None of the choices are valid as written, with the exception that an ExAB builder with a repairman certificate could hire an A&P if desired - not necessary.

A. If you build any RV kitplane as it stands today, choose ExAB. If you have the repairman's certificate, you would not need to involve an A&P except for advice and consultation at your option. And you don't need any additional training to perform the condition inspection (called an annual inspection in the world of certified airplanes but not for kitplanes)

B. You may NOT perform repairs on an S-LSA after a 16-hour course. The 16-hour course only applies to E-LSA, and it's not for repairs, it's for condition inspections.

C. You may legally perform repairs on your ExAB or E-LSA airplane with no training or certification whatsoever. You may choose major components for ExAB. You may not choose major components for anything with LSA in the title. You may perform the "annual" condition inspection for ExAB if you have the repairman's certificate. You may perform the "annual" condition inspection for E-LSA if you pass the proper 16-hour course. Regardless, Van's has not built an S-LSA and until they do, E-LSA version will not be available.

Chase Snodgrass
Presidio, TX
http://flybigbend.com

[Mike Armstrong]

Originally Posted by westexflyboy

Bob, I'm afraid your assumptions are in error. None of the choices are valid as written, with the exception that an ExAB builder with a repairman certificate could hire an A&P if desired - not necessary.

A. If you build any RV kitplane as it stands today, choose ExAB. If you have the repairman's certificate, you would not need to involve an A&P except for advice and consultation at your option. And you don't need any additional training to perform the condition inspection (called an annual inspection in the world of certified airplanes but not for kitplanes)

B. You may NOT perform repairs on an S-LSA after a 16-hour course. The 16-hour course only applies to E-LSA, and it's not for repairs, it's for condition inspections.

C. You may legally perform repairs on your ExAB or E-LSA airplane with no training or certification whatsoever. You may choose major components for ExAB. You may not choose major components for anything with LSA in the title. You may perform the "annual" condition inspection for ExAB if you have the repairman's certificate. You may perform the "annual" condition inspection for E-LSA if you pass the proper 16-hour course. Regardless, Van's has not built an S-LSA and until they do, E-LSA version will not be available.

Chase Snodgrass
Presidio, TX
http://flybigbend.com

What he said.

[westexflyboy]

Originally Posted by BobMoe

I think the RV12 is going to be another Expermental that can be flown by a Light Sport Pilot, but I hope I'm wrong.

Bob,

I don't understand, so perhaps we are looking at this from very different perspectives. There is pretty strong consensus that Experimental Amateur Built is the optimal choice in general aviation. For thousands of owners this category offers the most flexibility and least cost of ownership. E-LSA does not appeal to me because it does not have the flexibility and the savings are not nearly as dramatic.

Would you mind explaining why you hope you're wrong about the RV-12 being an Experimental that may be flown by a Sport Pilot? Are your goals different than mine?

Chase Snodgrass
Presidio, TX
http://flybigbend.com

[BobMoe]

Last year at SnF I sat in on the seminar presented by the people who give the 16 hour training courses. They made a huge point about getting the ELSA registration by 01/31/08. I couldn't understand what the big deal was either, but the one thing they stated was the value of a plane registered ELSA was worth $30,000 more than one that is Experimental. I'm just trying to find out how that could be possible. I'm thinking it was BS.
The last line of the Ask the EX included the words: 16 hour course, annual LSA's.
I took that to mean all LSA's, not just ELSA's.

Here is a site that cleared up all my confusion, sorry should have Googled sooner.

http://www.sportaviationspecialties....nformation.htm

[Alan Gilmore]

Hello,

FYI...I spoke to Vans Nov 29th and they said the best guess for the delivery would be in Feburary. I know that Vans is driven by quality more than schedule, and I am glad of it. I dont mind waiting a few months if it means that the big bugs will be worked out, and worst case, only a few minor problems left.

[rvbuilder2002]

Originally Posted by BobMoe

I couldn't understand what the big deal was either, but the one thing they stated was the value of a plane registered ELSA was worth $30,000 more than one that is Experimental. I'm just trying to find out how that could be possible.

for resale.

If you build it, and then you certify it E-LSA (can only be done once Van's has certified at least a single example as an S-LSA), you can do the annual condition inspection after completing the 16 hour course.

If you decide to sell it, the new owner can go take the 16 hour course and now he can complete the condition inspection.

This is the only real difference between an RV-12 (or anything else) certified as Exper. Amateur Built vs. Exper.-LSA.
With an Experimental Amateur Built, the new owner has to have an A&P sign off the annual condition inspection (but he can stall do any repairs, maint, or modifications that he wants too).

The trade off is that with E-LSA you must build it exactly like the S-LSA version, with E-A you can build it / equip it how ever you want.

Many builders will probably decide that E-A is more to there liking. Either one can be flow under Sport Pilot rules.

BTW... I doubt that an E-LSA RV-12 could sell for $30K more than an E-A one. Maybe two or three thousand more, if you are dealing with someone who doesn't want to find an A&P one time each year.

[bigbill25]

Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002

(snip)
BTW... I doubt that an E-LSA RV-12 could sell for $30K more than an E-A one. Maybe two or three thousand more, if you are dealing with someone who doesn't want to find an A&P one time each year.

What about market size? Anyone (Rec Pilots and Private Pilots) can fly an E-LSA RV-12, but only Private Pilots can fly the ExAB version. Thus, the market for the E-LSA is conceivably larger.

I'm just starting to get into this crazy armature built world, but I am thinking of building a RV-12 to spec as it will be the fastest way to build and be LSA sell-able in the end. Then build a slow-build RV-9A while flying the -12. When it comes time to buy the motor for the -9A, sell the -12. Still working out the details and need to get a house with a two car garage first, however...

--Bill

[RV10Hopeful]

Originally Posted by bigbill25

What about market size? Anyone (Rec Pilots and Private Pilots) can fly an E-LSA RV-12, but only Private Pilots can fly the ExAB version. Thus, the market for the E-LSA is conceivably larger.
--Bill

My understanding from previous posts is that any Light Sport or above license is eligible to fly any plane that fits the LSA requirements. So LS, Rec or Private would be able to fly an RV-12 built to LSA specs even if registered as ExAb. It comes down to more of who can do the work on the plane when it's needed.

Please correct me if my thinking is incorrect.