Glass cockpit without backup

[gmcjetpilot]

Originally Posted by RV10POLAND

I'm really surprised that so many RV builders go glass without any backup instrumentation What are they going to do if electricity fails? All this stuff is great but as you know there are some incidents of misstated, inaccurate readings of altitude, airspeed or unsafe attitude information. Even while flying under VMC you don't have airspeed and altitude readings. I don't want to criticize nobody but we all are here to help each other. I'm sure that adding three analog instruments is not a big deal and can save your life.

Regards Maciek

Have you ever flown a Piper Cub with no electrical system? All the flight/power instruments you have: wet compass, airspeed, altitude and RPM. Scary!

If your EFIS goes dark, a hand-held GPS w/ internal batteries is GOOD ENOUGH to give you "APPROX" altitude and ground speed (which is relative to airspeed). Even with out GPS you should be able to fly the plane in VFR conditions.

As a pilot you should be able to judge approx altitude and airspeed by seat-O-pants. How big are the houses? Big houses low, small houses high. The sound of the engine, wind slipstream and pitch attitude as you see out the windscreen and nose tells you how fast you are gooing. You can get on the ground if you don't panic.

I agree having your EFIS and Engine monitor Glass on separate systems is a good idea. That way you don't lose flight and engine instruments at the same time. Total electrical system failure (aka battery) is rare. If you have power (rpm/map) and pitch attitude (looking out windscreen) you know your approx airspeed or should.

"Failure is not an option." How many EFIS have just failed? Have you heard of any? I am sure it has happened and can happen but how likely? How likely is that single crankshaft or single prop going to fail?


I have a Dynon EFIS D10, GRT EIS4000 and THAT IS IT! Well that is it besides radio, transponder and handheld/portable GPS. With this panel I have the capability of a B757 in many ways. So what if it all goes dark. The engine runs (Mags, mechanical fuel pump/carb) and I can see, VFR, so I'll land.

As long as you know the limitations, I suggest an all glass no backup set-up is fine for VFR. No back-up for IFR, not a good idea.

There is definitely a new breed of pilots coming out of flight schools who have only seen a Garmin G1000 EFIS cockpit. They would not know what to do with steam gages. A J3 panel would give them a cold sweat. At least for IFR and training pilots should fly by back-up only, which means steam or analog gauges.

[ao.frog]

Hi.

My RV-7 is beeing built as a VFR acro/X-C plane.

For backup my AFS EFIS 3500 and Garmin 296 has internal backup batteries.

Even if the 3500 schould quit, the 296 can display the "six pack" of basic instruments.

Trying to build KISS-way, I'm not putting in any steamgages. I figure the 3500 and 296 is a good enough backup.

I'm also planning to bring along a handheld VHF-radio with ILS, just in case...

Regards Alf Olav Frog / Norway
RV-7 finishing/wiring

[ao.frog]

One of the copilots I flew with told me how he saved his bacon one day, making up his own backup instruments:

He was flying IFR, IMC at night when all of a sudden ALL of the electric instruments quit and the whole cockpit went completely dark. The engine kept on going but he had a total elec failure.

NOT fun at all...

This guy was a quick thinker and quickly he grabbed his cokebottle and a flashlight.
He placed the cokebottle on top of the glareshield and lit it up with his flashlight. Then he'd made himself a artificial horizon.

He then kept and eye on the mag compass and made sure he was not turning.

Then he added power and started a slow straight ahead climb until he became VFR on top.

Then he proceeded on top until he found a hole ahead (he remembered from his wx-briefing where to find the best wx)

Then he dropped down in the hole and landed safely at the nearest airport, keeping a VERY good lookout ofcourse...

That's what I'd call a smart guy!


Regards Alf Olav Frog / Norway

[steveKs.]

We have all watched the video of Bob Hoover pour himself a glass of ice tea while flying. I wonder if the glass of ice tea would serve as a AH in Bob's airplane.

[N941WR]

Originally Posted by n5lp

I presume you have tried this in your airplane in nice bumpy air, or you wouldn't say it. I have tried it in my RV-6 and I know for sure that it will not work for any reasonable length of time.

Larry,

That is a good question. I have done it in my old 65 hp T-craft (don't ask) and I will go out on a limb and say the -9 will (should) do it. The -9 is much more stable than the -6 because of it's longer wing, greater dihedral, and larger HS & VS.

Originally Posted by ao.frog

This guy was a quick thinker and quickly he grabbed his cokebottle and a flashlight.
He placed the cokebottle on top of the glareshield and lit it up with his flashlight. Then he'd made himself a artificial horizon.

Alf,

I'm not sure I would trust this. The coke will stay flat if you remain in coordinated flight, even if you are upside down. However, it might help you relax and fly the compass.

[penguin]

Originally Posted by Alex Caldwell

There is a special kind of compass called a "Bohli compass" that has a
needle on gimbals. I don't completely understand it, and have never used
one, but some glider pilots have used them for blind flying in clouds without
any electrical system, source of suction or other attitude instruments. The basic idea
is that the gimbals allow the compass needle to always align with the magnetic
lines of force, which are inclined, so it can give you information about the
attitude of the aircraft in relation to the earth's horizon. I think it also takes
out the other compass errors such as "northerly lag", "southerly lead" and
the acceleration errors, I think. You have to know the inclination of the magnetic
lines of force for your specific area of the earth, and I think you'd have to
do a lot of practice with it if you were really going to use it as a back up.

It's also real expensive. You can read more at this link:

http://www.bohli-magnete.ch/pdf/ba_kompi_e4.pdf

Alex, a Bohli is not really very suitable as an AI. It uses a small magnetised ball to show heading, suspended on a thin rod. The ball/rod must be aligned perpendicular to the local magnetic field (IIRC) - basically parallel with the horizon, so you have to look in the top of the 'compass' to see which way you are headed. To allow the pilot to see the compass card is written backwards and a mirror is provided to view it. The whole thing must be adjusted (with a large knob that sticks out the front of the panel) to remain parallel with the horizon as you bank. To use it as an AI you must adjust the bank of the instrument until the ball reads properly - not a trivial task requiring much practice. I never got on with the one I had as a compass, let alone an AI, then GPS came along so it got ripped out. They were banned at international soaring comps to stop pilots cloud flying, so it can be done if you're very good.
Pete

[Pilottonny]

IFR is a total different thing of course, but, although I am a VFR pilot, I have been caught up by bad weather, late arrival (after dark) and the likes, in our clubs C152?s and 172?s. I know, I know, the rules say that you should plan your flight so that this will never happen, but hey,?. nobody is prefect and sometimes so is my planning.

Although we are not allowed anything else than ?day-VFR? in experimentals, around here, I do have the full lighting job and plan to have backups for night flight and IFR emergencies.

After getting a big bullocking from our club?s CEO, for landing after dark one day, I started my night-VFR training a couple of days later (takes 5 hours in Belgium), so I could always land at a nearby medium-large airport safely, in case I would get myself into this situation again. Also I started taking on some more ?under the hood lessons? to be able to fly on instruments, because I had found myself cleared through controlled airspace, but the clouds I was flying through were so thick, I could not see the tip of the wings! After 5 minutes everything was clear again, but it made me realize that without being able to fly on instruments I would not have been able to survive such a flight! Also it made me realize that sometimes the weather can be very tricky. You think (or it has been predicted) that it will get better, so you continue, flying on instruments, but visibility is to bad for a VFR landing at your destination. At least if you have the instruments, you can land at a nearby airfield with GS-capabilities and get to the ground safe. Several club members told me: If you do that, you will lose your license and you will never fly again, bla, bla, bla! But for all I care, what use is my license when I am dead? So I would rather land illegally than not land at all!

I am installing a Dynon EFIS with remote compass, but also a Garmin SL30 with VOR and GS, in the unlikely case I have to land IFR one day. Our regulations call for at least a TSO compass, airspeed- and altitude gauge. So that is back-up already. I also have an AV-Map AKP-IV and a Trutrak Pilot II Autopilot, so in the worst case scenario of: IFR weather and a bug in the pitot and a malfunction of the back ?up altitude gauge and a malfunction of the SL30 (no NAV and no Com), I have ground speed and altitude from the GPS, attitude from the Trutrak and communication through my cell-phone. Actually I find it strange that nobody considers their cell-phone (I carry it with me all the time) as a back-up for radio transmission. I bet ?911? will connect you with the tower of your choice in a minute, when you tell them you have no other means of communication, to get your plane down on the ground!

Now, there is many of these scenarios that you could imagine, but how often will it be an and, and, and situation, like I describe? I guess you win the lottery before that and you should have done something well before it gets to that situation anyway.

Just my thoughts and the way I am laying out my instruments, to give me a safe feeling in any situation.

[w1curtis]

Originally Posted by ao.frog

One of the copilots I flew with told me how he saved his bacon one day, making up his own backup instruments:

He was flying IFR, IMC at night when all of a sudden ALL of the electric instruments quit and the whole cockpit went completely dark. The engine kept on going but he had a total elec failure.

NOT fun at all...

This guy was a quick thinker and quickly he grabbed his cokebottle and a flashlight.
He placed the cokebottle on top of the glareshield and lit it up with his flashlight. Then he'd made himself a artificial horizon.

He then kept and eye on the mag compass and made sure he was not turning.

Then he added power and started a slow straight ahead climb until he became VFR on top.

Then he proceeded on top until he found a hole ahead (he remembered from his wx-briefing where to find the best wx)

Then he dropped down in the hole and landed safely at the nearest airport, keeping a VERY good lookout ofcourse...

That's what I'd call a smart guy!


Regards Alf Olav Frog / Norway

I assume this is one of those hangar tales, that with a little introspection you can see is most likely a tall tale.

Firstly if a bottle of liquid could suffice as a backup attitude instrument, AI would not be so costly or complicated. Secondly, most gyros on small planes are vacuum powered, or else the FAA requires a totally separate power source for them and is usually not affected by a power failure of one system. If the gyros are vacuum powered, then all he needed was a flashlight to see the vacuum powered gyros. If they were also electrically powered, they probably have their own lighting.

European certification requirements are usually more stringent that the US so this story is a little suspect to me. What type of aircraft was it?

[n468ac]

Originally Posted by Pilottonny

I have ground speed and altitude from the GPS, attitude from the Trutrak and communication through my cell-phone. Actually I find it strange that nobody considers their cell-phone (I carry it with me all the time) as a back-up for radio transmission. I bet ?911? will connect you with the tower of your choice in a minute, when you tell them you have no other means of communication, to get your plane down on the ground!

I found the american cell phone network only works if you can stay near the highway (lots of cell towers), at or below 1500 agl, and below 100kts.

At normal RV speeds the cell towers can't keep up.

[gmcjetpilot]

Originally Posted by w1curtis

I assume this is one of those hangar tales, that with a little introspection you can see is most likely a tall tale.

Yep think so.

Personally I bring my cat "fluffy" with me for a back up instrument IFR. If I lose all my instruments IMC, I put the cat on the seat next to me. Cats have perfect balance right. If the cat is leaning one way or the other I know which way I'm banking. If the cat is standing on the roof I'm in trouble.