Factory Info: Parts with Laser Cut Holes and Potential for Cracks

[Nashpdman]

Originally Posted by dmattmul

It appears new threads are being completely removed by moderator(s). I get it an individual post can be removed but a complete thread where there were some legitimate issues raised that did not break any rules seems an issue. Hopefully Doug has some managerial oversight. There was a thread that referenced the word circumspect and how it pertained to Vans and “herd” mentality now gone. Pilots and engineers tend to plan for the worst and with missing input (silence, or lack of data) will fill in their own blanks, only natural. Hopefully we will see more transparency this week. There will be an occasional question or two at the Vans booth I’m sure. My bet is QB’s will not be effected as much as what most think. This is my speculation only. Little to no data to back it up, just a theory.

[ed. Nothing more complicated than trying to keep the laser cutting information contained here in this one thread, this one spot. There is a link highlighted on the front page of VAF included in the daily rotation for the past week and a half pointing here. This thread, created by Greg, is where the factory is posting new information when they have it. Word seems to be getting out, as (again this thread - sorry to keep using that phrase) has been viewed just shy of 53,000 times in the last week. 33 pages and counting. I'm sure more information will be presented during the Van’s forum Tue at 0830 - about 36 hours from the time I'm typing this. Any new information will of course be copied here. Trying my best to keep the important info where it can be found by the largest number of builders the fastest. Not perfect but I'm trying the best I know how to help the factory help the builders most efficiently. v/r,dr]

Agree! I'm sure Van's is tracking on this. It would seem to me, based on Jan 2022 update, there will be many QB kits that are not affected. I base this on the dates stated in the update video. 100-110 kits in a container plus, the ship to dates were prior to the start of laser cutting.

I cannot identify any laser cut parts in the QB kits I've received.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMTkDq2g-p0

[TX_Flyer]

Originally Posted by Bullpup

I'm working on a SB RV-8, and have the left wing mostly assembled, with laser-cut main and nose ribs. I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary while assembling, and followed the "build on" conversations here earlier this spring. Now, with the ribs primed, dimpled, and riveted I don't see any evidence of cracking. I thought I was going to be lucky; my tank baffles are punched - I figured I'd wait for replacement aileron & flap parts, and probably get new ribs for the (unbuilt) right wing just for double assurance.

Today I prepped one of the right wing ribs. This was one of the better laser cut items; clean-looking holes with minimum scorch marks and barely perceptible evidence of the punch location. I reamed to #40, deburred, and dimpled with cleveland dies in a pneumatic squeezer.

While I don't have a magnifying camera to post pictures, nearly every hole has a hairline notch/crack at the laser punch location. It is visible clearly under a 3x loupe and can be felt if you run a dental pick around the circumference of the dimple. I'm sure I wouldn't have ever noticed (and likely didn't on the left wing) these cracks without specifically looking for them, under magnification.

Like many, I'd been holding out hope that the undersized holes would not require part replacement, but I don't see any way to avoid a complete rebuild at this point. I figure this is adding $1000s in replacement parts; how do you replace just the ribs on a prosealed tank? What shape will the LE skin be in after drilling out every hole? Combined with shipping this is going to be a slow and expensive process.

Can you tell us which rib it was? Some are heat treated and other are not. Just curious to find out if it makes a difference.

[blaplante]

Apologies if this has already been brought up, this thread is really long already.

It's pretty clear that if all parts were marked with some sort of INDELIBLE marking indicating WHO made it, WHEN it was made, and what REV of the design... we'd be in a better position to determine if there is a problem or not in any given airframe.

I've recently helped two RV-6 owners construct new HSTABs. And am now faced with... did we or didn't we have a laser cut forward spar? If the parts were indelibly marked we could take a borescope and look for the codes.

When a supplier gives you (Vans) a bad batch of product, how do you weed out the bad parts if they all get into the same bin? Toss everything?

For example, Lycoming cylinders have an AD, but fortunately the cylinders have various casting marks to identify them, and I can confirm my cylinders aren't affected.

It needs to be an indelible marking so that one assembled, and painted, we can still see that traceability info.

Good news... for one of the two, I have a picture showing blue plastic on the parts. But the 2nd one... right now I don't know.

[Bullpup]

Originally Posted by TX_Flyer

Can you tell us which rib it was? Some are heat treated and other are not. Just curious to find out if it makes a difference.

It is a W-709R, one of the four internal leading edge ribs on the right wing. It is listed as T0 .025" heat treated on the list, but all of the wing ribs are heat treated.

Here's the best picture I could take using the 2x zoom on my iPhone - I got the light just right to show it clearly. Couple of points:

• they are nearly invisible to the naked eye - I actually thought this was good news until I looked really close
• basically every hole has the crack
• holes were reamed #40, deburred, and dimpled w a pneumatic squeezer and Cleveland dies

I was originally optimistic that undersized holes on heat treated parts would be good enough, but doesn't look like it. I'm about to get really good at drilling out rivets.

I am familiar with the Section 5 guidance on acceptable dimple cracks and filing them out, but without magnification and being cued to look I'm sure I would have missed these on the first wing. Also, I dimpled after priming.

Anyone have any thoughts on the severity of cracks like this one when covered in proseal? I assume the tank is the same.

[rv8ch]

Originally Posted by blaplante

...
It's pretty clear that if all parts were marked with some sort of INDELIBLE marking indicating WHO made it, WHEN it was made, and what REV of the design... we'd be in a better position to determine if there is a problem or not in any given airframe.

...

Very true, but this adds cost to the product. One reason "experimental" aviation is cheaper than "certified" is that we don't have to use products that have a detailed provenance.

This kind of QA problem has already been solved by others. (https://www.uthsc.edu/its/business-p...hsc/deming.php)

[Tlrguy]

Originally Posted by greghughespdx

We have posted an update and will present information about the testing process and results so far on Tuesday in Oshkosh at the forum session "What's Happening at Van's Aircraft."

Is this a BYOP event?

[blaplante]

Originally Posted by rv8ch

Very true, but this adds cost to the product. One reason "experimental" aviation is cheaper than "certified" is that we don't have to use products that have a detailed provenance.

This kind of QA problem has already been solved by others. (https://www.uthsc.edu/its/business-p...hsc/deming.php)

I suggest reading Quality Is Free by Philip B. Crosby

The cost of parts marking (I'm not talking certified detailed provenance docs) would have been a fraction of the total cost of this problem.

It appears that on final sized hole parts we may be able to drill out a rivet and borescope the hole to ID laser holes. On parts subsequently painted (primer) and match drilled... I don't know how to ID.

[tenacious9]

Originally Posted by rv8ch

Very true, but this adds cost to the product. One reason "experimental" aviation is cheaper than "certified" is that we don't have to use products that have a detailed provenance.

This kind of QA problem has already been solved by others. (https://www.uthsc.edu/its/business-p...hsc/deming.php)

True but then when something like this happens you will still have to pay. Either in reputation or money. I hope Van's (for all our sakes) picks the latter.

[Brantel]

I plan to be at the Van’s forum Tuesday morning and will attempt to YouTube Live the event. As many of you know, cell coverage and WIFI is spotty at AirVenture. Hopefully it will work out…..

My channel is linked below. I am not monetized so no worries there!

https://www.youtube.com/live/gO1pKlyPqvk?feature=share

If it does not work, sorry in advance!

[RavenAero]

Here are my photos of the slides regarding laser cut parts at today's forum.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WzDn5wQ5eu7qgfrq7

My initial impressions are that Van's is putting a lot of effort and very scientific approach to solving this. Way more than any individual builder could do. I'm convinced that it's best to wait for Van's to make some conclusions.

They did say that there is no need to ground aircraft that are already flying with some later cut parts. No word yet on priority of parts replacements. Effects on QB deliveries a bit unclear but they mentioned that builders will have the option to change to slow build...

QA session will happen soon