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  #1  
Old 10-24-2007, 10:01 AM
mcsteatlh mcsteatlh is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kingwood
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Default Snob, mis-informed, or true?

Sitting at the local FBO listening to real pilots talking, I heard one offer up that he agreed to fly an experimental STOL(I have seen it. Not a Kitfox but something like it) after it was ready. Experienced pilot, many many hours, CFII, many ratings, etc etc.... Heard him say he was really concerned and worried. I opened my mouth and asked why? He said, "Because it was built in someones garage." I then asked why that bothered him. He replied, "do you know how many garage builts hit the ground?" I, uninformed and ignorant replied, "No more than GA aircraft I think. Maybe less." End of conversation.

This bothered me. I know this man to be gruff and a tad stiff, but this flippant comment about homebuilts struck a nerve. I know that all GA pilots can't think this way. Is there truth to him stating, "experimental = crash?"

McSteath
Student Pilot

Last edited by mcsteatlh : 10-24-2007 at 11:53 AM.
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  #2  
Old 10-24-2007, 10:14 AM
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frankh frankh is offline
 
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Location: Corvallis Oregon
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Default I haven't seen any statisics but..

He is right to be concerned. We RV types tend to be conservative and don't often deviate from the norm of what has been offered in our kits.

I think if everyone built an RV this way then we could expect the accident rate to be the same or better compared to GA.....At least as far as first flights go.

The trouble is the "experimental" category gives the builder a LOT of latitude...In fact we can pretty much do what we want.

I don't have a mechanical fuel pump...but an electric pump in each wingroot. Sure its designed carefully and I am very comfortable with the system, But if I hired a test pilot I wouldn't expect him to be.

Take this this to its logical conclusion where you have untrained folks trying out unproven ideas in their homebuilts and I think its fair to say a few more of them go down than the average GA airplane.

I was told of a Rotax conversion where the guy"invented" his own two stroke style lubrication system...Evrybody apparently tried to dissuade him from flying his contraption..He killed himself on a very early flight...Yup the engine seized.

This sort of thing is a rare example but it does happen.

If you are concerned about an RV falling out of the sky...well that just doesn't happen. Stick to tried and trusted methods (a Lycoming clone with a standard fuel system and one mag) and you will be as safe as any GA airplane.

Frank
7a 225 hours
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  #3  
Old 10-24-2007, 10:15 AM
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RV8iator RV8iator is offline
 
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Default NO

I think that answers it..
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  #4  
Old 10-24-2007, 11:11 AM
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f1rocket f1rocket is offline
 
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Default

Overall, many General Aviation pilots are uninformed about experimental aircraft. There's a group that generally look down on anythink that's not certified. You can try to talk to them but most have their mind made up.

Life's too short. Move on.
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  #5  
Old 10-24-2007, 11:17 AM
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kentb kentb is offline
 
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Default The data that I recall from about two years ago...

On average Exp have more accidents that certified.
But some certified have fewer then others. I remember that C172 had about the lowest rate. So why would the pilot that made that comment ever fly anything that a C172?

I don't recall all the details of the article about acc. rate, but I am sure that there are certified planes with higher rates the exp.

The largest type of acc. for certified as well as exp. is "pilot error". The best way to improve this is with training and practice.

I think that a pronounced difference in the acc. rate between exp. and cert. for mechanical failure was engine problems. If you want a safe airplane make sure that you have an engine that is reliable.

Kent
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  #6  
Old 10-24-2007, 11:37 AM
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DanH DanH is online now
 
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Default

I agree with Frank. I TC a lot of projects other than RVs, and some of what you see will make your hair stand on end. RV builders tend to be much more conservative about following proven aircraft practice, but that's not to say they don't do plenty of dumb things too. Anybody drafted for a first flight should make a point of spending time inspecting the aircraft (lots of time!)and refusing to fly if they find anything they don't like.
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  #7  
Old 10-24-2007, 11:50 AM
JimLogajan JimLogajan is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsteatlh View Post
Is there truth to him stating, "experimental = crash?"
Ron Wanttaja wrote an article titled "Homebuilt Aircraft: How Safe Are They?" for the September 2006 issue of Kitplanes magazine. (If you have a subscription, the article is online here: http://www.kitplanes.com/issues/pdfs/0906-2832.pdf ) He crunched a lot of numbers and had to make some assumptions, so you should track down the article for the full scoop, but basically he found about 1 in 100 first-flights results in a crash. Quoting from Ron's article (with some commentary from him directly relevant to RVs):

"Two thirds of the 27 identified first flight accidents were due to human error. Thirteen were Pilot Error - Failure to Control, and five were Builder Error. Three of the Builder Error crashes were fuel-system related.

Looking at the entire test period, about 3.3% of the homebuilt fleet crashes during the first 40 hours. Again, this is similar to the results of the previous study. One of the interesting discoveries from before was that the homebuilt accident rate tapered off sharply during the test period, but that there was a secondary peak in the 40-80 hour range. As Figure 5 shows, the peak is still there, although not as obvious.

Another fascinating discovery from the first flight analysis: Although more than a third of new homebuilts are RVs, only one of the 27 identified first flight accidents happened to a Van?s Aircraft design. Only 7% of homebuilt accidents during the nominal 40-hour test period involved an RV. Why? Many factors, but I?d guess the biggest driver is the support available from the thousands of successful RV builders."
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  #8  
Old 10-24-2007, 12:41 PM
grimr2 grimr2 is offline
 
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Default One question

Great comments.

But I have one question. If the guy doesn't trust the quality of "garage builts" why did he agree to fly it?
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  #9  
Old 10-24-2007, 05:12 PM
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LettersFromFlyoverCountry LettersFromFlyoverCountry is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimLogajan View Post
Ron Wanttaja wrote an article titled "Homebuilt Aircraft: How Safe Are They?" for the September 2006 issue of Kitplanes magazine. (If you have a subscription, the article is online here: http://www.kitplanes.com/issues/pdfs/0906-2832.pdf ) He crunched a lot of numbers and had to make some assumptions, so you should track down the article for the full scoop,
This might be of some interest.
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  #10  
Old 10-24-2007, 08:54 PM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Default Back in the dark ages...

When I got my PPL I remember some of the old time pilots commenting on an experimental. They commented on how dangerous they were and only an idot would fly one.

At the time, that was probably correct, this was just as the RV-4 was starting to show up around the country and most home builts were rag and tube things which stalled at high speeds and cruised not much faster.

That and there was no "standard" home built, unlike what we enjoy with our RV's today.
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