VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

  #31  
Old 10-22-2007, 07:24 AM
mdoyle mdoyle is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Xenia, OH
Posts: 148
Default

Thanks Doug, I really was a middle school principal, retired for 2 months, and then went back into education in another capacity. (I am still working with kids K-12 everyday)
I really believe this country's success is based on its public education system and military strength. Our K-12 education systems availability to everyone allows any student who chooses to achieve at his or her highest ability.
Thanks for your site Doug, and I will continue to contribute because of the education I receive here. I feel like I have made many friends here even though I have not met most of them.
__________________
Mike Doyle
RV-12
RV-9A, Under Construction
Xenia, OH 45385
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-22-2007, 09:12 AM
mcsteatlh mcsteatlh is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kingwood
Posts: 80
Default Ding-ding-ding!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jconard View Post
This site exists and is available with free content to all builders in large part because the advertisers pay for the adds. It makes sense that those people, many (most) of whom are growing small businesses expect that their advertising dollars will not subsidize the biggest bottom basement price seller in the industry.

These small busineses are real companies, with real people employed, who have expertise in the things that they sell. Nonetheless, we seem increasingly interested in squeezing every penny out of every transaction.

In addition to not supporting this site, Aircraft Spruce offers ABSOLUTELY NO TECH SUPPORT FOR ANY OF THEIR AVIONICS. Where will those people call ? The will call Steinair, or Aerotronics, or any number of high value companies which can and will support the things they sell. It costs money to support technology. Most manufacturers expect their resellers to do that. Unfortunately, in many areas (like radios) the biggest, cheapest seller will tell all its customers to call Steinair or others. They have been doing this with autopilots, and dynons for years.

Perhaps the better question here is....how much do we expect out of the experts, and the small high value sellers, when we refuse to support them with a purchase, and instead buy on price alone?

Is it fair to expect advertisers to fund a site, if their main price competitor gets to sell large, cheap quantities here for free?

Is it fair for people to buy product cheap in one place and call for support to one of the shops that was "not worth" the extra pennies at purchase?

I am sorry, but sometimes it amazes me how we have forgotten business manners. Would you expect a catering company to pick up the tab for the hall, and still let you buy the steak from Sam's club? There is nothing wrong with Doug protecting the people who make this site, in its current format, possible.

We have a winner. Good post JConard.

Being a current small business owner, and, growing up in small business with my family all my life, I witness people each day that have no clue to what it takes to own and run a business. It is not a question of "forgotten business manners" as JConard posts, it is one of complete ignorance. Peope don't know business manners because they have never had to excercise them, nor were they taught them! All people think when they think of business is K-Mart or Wal Mart and you don't need manners if you exclusivley shop with them.

Off my soap box!

McStealth
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-22-2007, 09:48 AM
ChrisL ChrisL is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Portsmouth, NH
Posts: 84
Default

I whole heartedly agree - McStealth and JConard are right on the money with this one.
__________________
Chris Lund
Portsmouth, NH
RV-7 Emp, Wings, & Fuse Done - Working on the Canopy
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-22-2007, 10:10 AM
LifeofReiley's Avatar
LifeofReiley LifeofReiley is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Round Rock, TX
Posts: 3,778
Default

<snip>

In addition to not supporting this site, Aircraft Spruce offers ABSOLUTELY NO TECH SUPPORT FOR ANY OF THEIR AVIONICS. Where will those people call ? The will call Steinair, or Aerotronics, or any number of high value companies which can and will support the things they sell. It costs money to support technology. Most manufacturers expect their resellers to do that. Unfortunately, in many areas (like radios) the biggest, cheapest seller will tell all its customers to call Steinair or others. They have been doing this with autopilots, and dynons for years.

<snip>

This is one of the main reasons I purchased from Stein and should be a big factor in the decision process of where to make any major purchase. Plus, Stein is a really cool guy!
__________________
Reiley
Retired N622DR - Serial #V7A1467
VAF# 671
Repeat Offender / Race 007
Friend of the RV-1
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-22-2007, 11:34 AM
Bob Brown's Avatar
Bob Brown Bob Brown is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Somewhere in a motorhome
Posts: 581
Default

In my line of (esoteric) work, I am seen as a global technical resource. It is amazing to me how many calls I receive from people who purchased products from my competitor that then want my input on how to use them and why they are having problems. This has always mystified me, but I can assure you it is a worldwide phenomena. On more than one occasion, I have had to speak up and say that I am not the technical support arm for my competitors. I have had many clients act surprised when I put it that way. Having said that, I also know you can't satisfy everyone all the time.

Doug has done what is right and logical, as outlined by many above. As Randy Lervold said, VAF has become THE universal forum for all things RV...and rightly so since WE the builders and pilots of RV's have built this knowledge base. But this knowledge base exists because of Doug's work and the support of the advertisers. Doug's vision was clear. His business plan is just as clear to me.

I am another who receives much more value from this site than the money I send in...in fact, it's not even a comparison.

Thanks Doug and thank all of you who have added to this incredible body of knowledge. And thank you to the advertisers who cater to our desires and needs.
__________________
RV7A-QB, RV-10
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-22-2007, 12:26 PM
kentb's Avatar
kentb kentb is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Canby, Oregon
Posts: 1,786
Default Economics 101

Doug is right and so is Aircraft Spruce. Think about it, when you get the lowest possible price in a group buy, the supplier is cutting out all that they can to give you that best price. They have cut out the advertising expense because they are dealing with you directly. Why would they want to increase the cost of that sale by paying Doug for those sales?
By rights the people who get a better price through a group buy should be paying Doug a commission, because it was through the use of his product (VAF) that they were able to save some money.

I am sure that Doug has put a lot of personal resources into creating and maintaining this site. For him to reap the rewards, whatever they maybe, is only right. It is up to him to set the rules and we should all respect them.

Kent
__________________
Kent Byerley
RV9A N94KJ - IO320, CS, tipup
AFS 3500, TT AP, FLYING....
Canby, Or
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-22-2007, 04:42 PM
N908RV's Avatar
N908RV N908RV is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Warrenton, VA
Posts: 273
Default On Soapbox

Quote:
Originally Posted by randylervold View Post
You know, those of use who have met Doug know he is "great guy", but I submit that has nothing whatsoever to do with anything. The issue is whether you as a viewer/particpant derive value from the site or not. Face it, Doug had the vision to create vansairforce.net as an enhanced center for the RV community, a vision that was a bit different than the then-center of the RV universe, Matt Dralle's RV-List. He then stepped up and invested the time and money in putting together what has become the de facto center of the RV builders community. In doing so he provides value to all of us who use the forum (which is how many thousand now?). Bob Collins makes an excellent point above... he's derived far more value from the information exchange than he could have saved on any group buy. Good for him for recognizing the value he (and others) derive.

No one is saying we shouldn't post personal testimonials (feedback/reviews/critiques/information) on various products, in fact it is encouraged, only that it should be not be used as a platform for commerce. In essence Doug is saying use this forum to freely exchange information, but don't use as a commerce forum (other than personal classifieds). This is an important distinction and I believe the essence of the issue.
Agreed. Nicely said Randy. Everybody wants a free lunch, but realistically you can't have such a nice forum without costs and dedication. That dedication has led Doug to attempt to feed his family and pay the bills with donations from advertisers and donations on this site. Advertisers in many cases that are even involved in the site and are contributing to the community. My hats off to the Stein's, Mattituck's and the Barrett's of the world. Frankly for as much as all of us spend at Aircraft Spruce and since we are without a doubt the largest of the homebuilt communities, and since DR's site is the defacto RV site now, ACS should be embarrassed not to advertise here.

Although I have not participated in the group buys I can see the value for everyone and for the folks that organize them my hats are off to them because it is a lot of work to do that. But these are happening because of the networking capabilities of this site and large multi thousand dollar orders are being generated from this site to non-advertising commercial companies. These companies are greatly benefiting from the site's PR power without even bothering to acknowledge the source and drop DR a dime for his time and effort in putting together what amounts to most RV folks morning coffe and then some.

I suppose Doug had to take a stand at some point - after all - he only asks for the honor system from the RV builder community - you got to respect that. If ACS and others are benefitting heavily from group buy traffic on the site and unwilling to pay for advertising to help support what they are making on existing sales via the VAF site in its capacity as a commerce forum, well, then I respect that DR needs to do what he needs to do to keep the servers going and food on the plate.

My 2c.

Rob
__________________
Rob Brooks
EAA Tech Counselor
Warrenton, VA

RV-8, QB completed, flown 750hrs and sold
http://www.taildraggersinc.com/pages...RV_flying.html

RV-7, SB completed and flying Phase 2
http://www.mykitlog.com/N908rv/
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-22-2007, 09:11 PM
jcoloccia jcoloccia is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,110
Default

re: group buys benefiting non-advertisers

That's funny. I thought group buys benefited VAF members. Personally, I'm agnostic as I'm stalled on my project for the foreseeable future, although I DID benefit from a group buy of seat heaters some time ago. They were designed for boats, I think, so they'll never be an advertiser.

Anyhow, I respect Doug and his decisions (especially since I haven't donated in some time) but it seems a little petty at this point.
__________________
John Coloccia
www.ballofshame.com
Former builder, but still lurking 'cause you're a pretty cool bunch...
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 10-22-2007, 10:08 PM
mark manda's Avatar
mark manda mark manda is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bakersfield ,Calyfornia
Posts: 922
Default

Lots of us VAF'ers were buying from ACS long before we or Doug even had pilot's licenses.

i.e. The 3 inch hose and the NACA ducts still work great in my 935's quarter windows for twenty plus years. along with the CHT's and the EGT's and the tubing and SS braided lines, Aeroquip fittings...




Last edited by mark manda : 10-22-2007 at 10:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 10-23-2007, 05:59 PM
MrNomad's Avatar
MrNomad MrNomad is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 823
Smile Payback and thanks for a great service

For what it?s worth, I have not received a response from Aircraft Spruce concerning my suggestion that they advertise on Doug?s site. It?s only been a few days; sometimes letters take awhile to make their way up the food chain.

It was not my intent to cause a lengthy dialogue (38 responses thus far) but when someone provides a service as extraordinary as this website it becomes a duty to help in return. It?s no different than my friend Gil who loaned me brake line tubing so I didn?t have to wait for UPS to keep building. It?s also no different than every stranger who offers tools, parts, and a hangar when your airplane screws up far away from home.

If we don?t look out for one another, who will? The FAA? Congress?

For less than the cost of 5 gals of avgas, which buys only 45 minutes of flying, people have access to a full year of valuable information, parts sales, the occasional group-buy, comraderie, and entertainment via this website. Sadly, fewer than 10% see the morality of sending in $25 per year, but we are also the community that vendors like Spruce depend upon. Customers tell vendors what they want and smart vendors listen. In return, we reward them with our dollars. If you think Spruce ought to supply limited tech support, tell them. Unlike congress, successful vendors care what their customers think.

By urging Spruce to advertise on vansairforce.com we are helping Doug, but we are also helping ourselves because without vendor advertisement we may not have this incredible resource. Doug?s site contributes to safer airplanes and to do anything less than support his needs would be a disservice to a friend I hope to meet someday, maybe Saturday at Copperstate.

Finally, my good friend Chet and I are first time builders but we?re going to finish a QB9 in 17 months and that includes the assembly of the engine, the wiring of a sophisticated glass panel, and paint. 17 months would have been 17 years without the many threads we?ve read and the people who helped us. If not for this site, how else would two old men like us from Tucson get advice from a savvy woman like Roberta from Wisconsin on how to cut a canopy?

We wouldn?t.

Doug, consider my letter to Spruce payback & thanks for a job well done. If there?s anything else I can do to help, lemme know. Italians never forget a favor.

Barry DiSimone
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:26 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.