Got e from Zoche, near production

Garth · #1 10-14-2007, 02:13 PM

I just got an e mail from Zoche diesel the other day, they are near production he said. I went to their site at http://www.zoche.de/zoche_brochure.pdf and it looks the same but a lot of the text has been changed.

Their 150 HP at 185 lbs with all acc burning 5.5 GPH and the 300 HP at 270 pounds and 11 GPH, and all this on road equipment and stove oil diesel? Man, thats less than $ 2 bucks a gal. I would (will anyway as auto gas is so much cheaper too) put a fuel tank in the truck bed to fill my plane myself.

If they come through (been gonna for years now) it will sure be a blessing. They say motor makes less noise than prop without a muffler, so you can never even hear the engine. Has a lot of new innovations and advanced features, one piece cylinder and head for no gasket to fail or bolts to tighten or leak, no hoses, belts, starter/generator one piece built in direct drive, no PSRU, etc etc. Their sites a nice read anyway. One clean neat little package for sure.

Pirkka · #2 10-15-2007, 12:06 AM

When did you got this kind of report first time? Just wondering as they have been working with this engine ~15 years for now... And I've also heard couple comments about their engine design which are not encouraging, but I wish them luck and hope to see those engines in air soon.

David-aviator · #3 10-15-2007, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirkka

When did you got this kind of report first time? Just wondering as they have been working with this engine ~15 years for now... And I've also heard couple comments about their engine design which are not encouraging, but I wish them luck and hope to see those engines in air soon.

It's longer than that, like approaching a quarter of a century. Zoche has an infinite supply of carrots (and money it seems) - they've been leading anyone who cares to be led for a long time.

Garth · #4 10-15-2007, 04:37 PM

Read my quote again. I said they been working on it for years, I know they are a joke in the industry, how long they take is not the issue, they can take as long as they want, it doesn't make the engine any less impressive. It will probably be several More, if at all before it is on the market, but did you look at all the fantastic innovations and revolutionary improvements to todays choices (or do you even care?)

I appreciate anyone who can bring something new to the marketplace, no matter when they come through. A lot of high timers would love to switch out to this from whatever (and whenever) they have now. The diesel offerings and wannabees out their now are not even in this league, they are just big balky boat anchors with so so performance at best. And they are not coming on line any faster. I will watch Zoche forever as a great alternative to the complex and heavy diesel monsters out there so far.

As I see it, diesel has no chance unless it is some new concept like a Zoche. Light, simple and strong. When you add belts, hoses, water cooling and weight it is fine for a boat, a car, but not an airplane.

hevansrv7a · #5 10-15-2007, 05:02 PM

According to the GAMI guys, we can run LOP at 0.40 SFC. My GRT says I can get that down to 0.38 pounds/HP/Hr. Zoche claims 0.346. That's a 9% gain over what I think I'm getting or 13.5% better than 0.40.

OK, that would be nice. The cheap fuel, lower weight and smaller frontal area would also be great. The tradeoffs include:

Untried Engine
Field Support
FWF resources
Full tanks weigh more for same gallons.
Vaporware vs. Hardware

Garth · #6 10-15-2007, 05:13 PM

I agree, a diesel at all is still questionable. The 300 HP Crossflow Suzuki http://www.crossflow.com/products/fi...ts/CF6-33.html claims 13 GPH at 75% and gas is a pound a gallon lighter, but it is also explosive and vapor locks etc. Diesel jells in the cold, who knows, but just as diesels go....

Also the rotary diesels when they come out. We will see, plenty of time yet as none are going to be real soon in the large engine categories.

rv6ejguy · #7 10-15-2007, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garth

I agree, a diesel at all is still questionable. The 300 HP Crossflow Suzuki http://www.crossflow.com/products/fi...ts/CF6-33.html claims 13 GPH at 75% and gas is a pound a gallon lighter, but it is also explosive and vapor locks etc. Diesel jells in the cold, who knows, but just as diesels go....

Also the rotary diesels when they come out. We will see, plenty of time yet as none are going to be real soon in the large engine categories.

Crossflow used Subaru based engines, not Suzuki. Their SFC numbers are absurd. Taking their "350" hp engine at 75% power, they say cruise fuel consumption is 13.5 gal./hr. This equates to a SFC of .308, a figure never obtained by any gasoline engine ever- even turbocompound ones and better than most mobile diesel engines. Absolutely impossible.

Interesting how they would obtain this hp level with a mismatched OE turbo as well. My experience in helping ex clients is that they make nowhere close to this hp given the props they are turning. The compressors are frequently in the surge region as well.

Garth · #8 10-15-2007, 09:01 PM

My mistake, Subaru. You do sound like you know your stuff alright. (I will reserve my opinion of it on the Rotamax rotary for now though, Ha) I definitely won't defend Crossflow as I have two acquaintances that had bad dealings with them some years ago, real bad. And when I asked them about that (Crossflow) they got huffy with "we don't know what they are going to use them in and so many homebuilders try to modify the engine even before they mount it and void the warranty and ruin our factory dino settings and ..... on and on.

But like I say, Kirk Creelman says he has checked them out extensively and they are solid....HE says. But time for telling is very near. They have several flying now and more every week.

rzbill · #9 10-15-2007, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rv6ejguy

This equates to a SFC of .308, a figure never obtained by any gasoline engine ever- even turbocompound ones and better than most mobile diesel engines. Absolutely impossible.

Well.... In the normal range of experience, quite true. Hard to get under .4 really. However, just for entertainment and education, one should look up the Wartsila engines. Super massive diesel 2-strokes (2300 hp per cylinder, 112 rpm, etc). The pictures are stunning. Their documents show less than .30 lb/hp*hr. I am inclined to believe them since the uses these are put to are frequently monitored by CFO's. I had one of their tiny V-16s as a power regeneration facility at a previous employer. Only way to get one of these flying is a project of Howard Hughes scale!

http://www.gizmag.com/go/3263/

rv6ejguy · #10 10-15-2007, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rzbill

Well.... In the normal range of experience, quite true. Hard to get under .4 really. However, just for entertainment and education, one should look up the Wartsila engines. Super massive diesel 2-strokes (2300 hp per cylinder, 112 rpm, etc). The pictures are stunning. Their documents show less than .30 lb/hp*hr. I am inclined to believe them since the uses these are put to are frequently monitored by CFO's. I had one of their tiny V-16s as a power regeneration facility at a previous employer. Only way to get one of these flying is a project of Howard Hughes scale!

http://www.gizmag.com/go/3263/

I'm talking gasoline engines here. There are many stationary diesels well under .30.