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  #21  
Old 05-18-2021, 06:52 AM
CessnaTPA CessnaTPA is offline
 
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I've clekoed all the top skin on the RV12 tailcone and after removing every other one to put in the Rivets majority would not fit. As you can see in the pic it looks like I should be able to push the Rivets in but I can't. What is the best method of installing the clekos? Start in the middle and place the Rivets as you cleko? (Which I redid that way and it's helped) What's the thoughts of just #30 reaming the holes so slightly? I was told by another builder drilling to a #29 is within tolerance so I would think a #30 would be just fine rather than forcing the Rivets in?
I'd appreciate your input.
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  #22  
Old 05-18-2021, 07:07 AM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CessnaTPA View Post
I've clekoed all the top skin on the RV12 tailcone and after removing every other one to put in the Rivets majority would not fit. As you can see in the pic it looks like I should be able to push the Rivets in but I can't. What is the best method of installing the clekos? Start in the middle and place the Rivets as you cleko? (Which I redid that way and it's helped) What's the thoughts of just #30 reaming the holes so slightly? I was told by another builder drilling to a #29 is within tolerance so I would think a #30 would be just fine rather than forcing the Rivets in?
I'd appreciate your input.
If it is alignment problem, try rotating the cleco next to the hole in a circular pattern while try to insert the rivet. If is a too small hole, a #30 bit should clean it up sufficiently.

A #29 is marginally too large.
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Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century. Over 1,000 certifications accomplished. Discount for Veterans, Law Enforcement, Fire Fighters.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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  #23  
Old 05-18-2021, 07:39 AM
CessnaTPA CessnaTPA is offline
 
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Thanks for that tip. Would that be rotating it with or without the cleko pliers pulled?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
If it is alignment problem, try rotating the cleco next to the hole in a circular pattern while try to insert the rivet. If is a too small hole, a #30 bit should clean it up sufficiently.

A #29 is marginally too large.
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  #24  
Old 05-18-2021, 08:39 AM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Clecos are not high precision devices when it comes to aligning holes.

One technique that can help is to use a #30 alignment tool inserted in a hole adjacent to where a cleco is being installed, to help get precise alignment before the skin is clamped by the cleco.

You can make a tool from a dull #30 drill bit.
Sharpen a point on the end that normally inserts into the drill chuck with a grinder and then press the drill bit into a dowel with a hole drilled in it to make a handle.

An additional factor in hole alignment at assembly is the level of precision when fluting flanges on bulkheads and ribs to straighten them. If not done thoroughly, you will always be fighting to get holes into alignment.

I would not recommend using a #29 drill to ream the holes.
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  #25  
Old 05-18-2021, 10:28 AM
CessnaTPA CessnaTPA is offline
 
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Thanks Scott for the #30 alignment bit trick. I've been told to start in the middle when riveting. Is there any advantage using that technique when clekoing?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
Clecos are not high precision devices when it comes to aligning holes.

One technique that can help is to use a #30 alignment tool inserted in a hole adjacent to where a cleco is being installed, to help get precise alignment before the skin is clamped by the cleco.

You can make a tool from a dull #30 drill bit.
Sharpen a point on the end that normally inserts into the drill chuck with a grinder and then press the drill bit into a dowel with a hole drilled in it to make a handle.

An additional factor in hole alignment at assembly is the level of precision when fluting flanges on bulkheads and ribs to straighten them. If not done thoroughly, you will always be fighting to get holes into alignment.

I would not recommend using a #29 drill to ream the holes.
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  #26  
Old 05-18-2021, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CessnaTPA View Post
Thanks for that tip. Would that be rotating it with or without the cleko pliers pulled?
Without the pliers pulled. Don't "twist". Rotate the top of the cleco in a circular motion.
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EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
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  #27  
Old 05-18-2021, 11:57 AM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Another way to describe what I think Mel is describing is wobble the top of the cleco in a circular motion after installing it.

Another method that is often helpful is to use rivets along with the pin tool I described, to help get everything lined up.

To do this you insert the pin tool and then wobble it slightly as you insert a rivet in a hole right beside it (this requires using less clecos than one every other hole). Do this for an entire skin before setting any rivets (once you start setting rivets it begins to lock the position of the skin and can influence the alignment of other holes elsewhere). Once you have all of the rivets inserted you can set them in whatever pattern is convenient.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.

Scott McDaniels
Hubbard, Oregon
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
FAA/DAR
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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  #28  
Old 05-19-2021, 11:23 AM
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BobbyLucas BobbyLucas is offline
 
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"Pliers pulled" is a bit ambiguous to me. Does "pulled" mean the pliers are still squeezed, or does it mean you've released the pliers and pulled them away from the cleco?

I would phrase it as rotate the cleco into the desired orientation before releasing the pliers.

Edit: Now I've re-read the previous responses and see the recommendation is to rotate after releasing? Why not before?
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  • My opinions are JUST my opinions, not facts
  • Regardless of phrasing or colorfulness, my opinion does not imply that any opposing opinions are wrong or ANY less valid than my own
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  #29  
Old 05-19-2021, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyLucas View Post
"Pliers pulled" is a bit ambiguous to me. Does "pulled" mean the pliers are still squeezed, or does it mean you've released the pliers and pulled them away from the cleco?
I would phrase it as rotate the cleco into the desired orientation before releasing the pliers.
Edit: Now I've re-read the previous responses and see the recommendation is to rotate after releasing? Why not before?
If the pliers are held in the "release" position, the cleco isn't doing anything. If the cleco is in the position to hold the sheets together, rotating the top helps to align the 2 sheets. This is NOT that complicated!
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Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century. Over 1,000 certifications accomplished. Discount for Veterans, Law Enforcement, Fire Fighters.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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  #30  
Old 05-19-2021, 12:46 PM
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BobbyLucas BobbyLucas is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
If the pliers are held in the "release" position, the cleco isn't doing anything. If the cleco is in the position to hold the sheets together, rotating the top helps to align the 2 sheets. This is NOT that complicated!
Your use of "release" refers to releasing the cleco. I specifically said "release the pliers," as in stop squeezing the pliers, as in let go. Put the cleco in the hole, release the pliers, parts clamped. We all understand how they work. Phraseology is important.

As Scott implied in his response, simply twisting the body or plunger after the cleco has been installed will do nothing. Once it's clamped down you'd have to wobble the top off its axis in a circular motion while you watch the back side to see when it get's into the alignment you want. My question is why is it preferable to do that when you can just put the thing in the orientation you want before you let go of the pliers?
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Bobby Steinmetz
Van Buren TWP, MI
Student Pilot, Mechanical Engineer, Donating Member
RV-12iS #121228
  • My opinions are JUST my opinions, not facts
  • Regardless of phrasing or colorfulness, my opinion does not imply that any opposing opinions are wrong or ANY less valid than my own
  • Respect people by giving your own opinion without attacking or belittling others
  • Passive-aggressive is not better than overt-aggressive
  • When I fail to meet these standards, please call me out, gently

Last edited by BobbyLucas : 05-19-2021 at 12:52 PM.
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