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08-26-2020, 06:36 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 5,297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXFlyGuy
My test pilot is the former factory Chief Pilot / Test Pilot. He exceeds all requirements by a wide margin.
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Need to be careful here. This guy is not a CFI and you likely don't have insurance coverage until after your 5 hours of flying with him. If you wish to be insured, your buddy must be the PIC. In that case, you likely do not have the qual's to be a QP. If you are the pilot, your buddy can be the QP. But now you have an issue with the insurance company if an accident occurs, as you haven't met the requirements of your policy.
Things are different when the QP is also a CFI and the policy asks for x hours of dual. There might be some loop holes to allow the QP to operate as PIC. I never study'ed that aspect deeply.
Larry
__________________
N64LR - RV-6A / IO-320, Flying as of 8/2015
N11LR - RV-10, Flying as of 12/2019
Last edited by lr172 : 08-26-2020 at 06:39 AM.
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08-26-2020, 07:01 AM
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VAF Moderator / Line Boy
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXFlyGuy
Need a little explaining here...
The FAR's say you must perform the following to qualify for the APP:
1. Mixture and idle speed check.
2. Mag check.
3. Cold cylinder check.
4. Carb heat check.
5. Fuel flow check.
6. Unusable fuel check.
7. Compression check.
My engine is a brand new, zero time, factory (GM) crate engine. With full ECU control. So some of these tests will not apply.
What do they want in a fuel flow check? We have a dual fuel pump installation, and the fuel flows to the engine perfectly.
How exactly do you check unusable fuel? Fill the tanks, and run the engine until fuel starvation occurs, and then tip the plane up and see if you can drain any additional fuel?
Pardon my elementary questions, but I honestly do not know the answers.
Thanks!
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I am guessing that you are not talking about an RV here, or we’d al know the “factory chief pilot” that you are talking about. That’s OK - everyone is here to learn.
However, you have to read AC 90-116 very carefully - in summary, the airplane has to be built EXACTLY to the kit specifications, and with an engine as specified by the kit company. It has to be a kit that is listed in the “Revised Listing of Amateur-Built Aircraft Kits” (essentially, the list of airplanes that meet the 51% rule - but it must be specifically listed).
A fuel flow check documents th maximum gallons/hour that the fuel system can flow - you have to use the pumps (or gravity) to flow into a bucket and do the measurement. This test is listed in the FAA Flight Test Advisory Circular.
Unusable fuel is how much is still in teh system after the engine quits, yes. Figuring that out can take a little math of How much you put in initially, then how much you put back in after the engine quits (becasue it is not always the same as “how much you can drain out after the engine quits - there is a difference between unusable and untrainable....).
Read the entire AC90-116 - it is not just a “grab a qualified pilot and go flying” program - it is a measured, carefully thought out test program that surprisingly doesn’t apply to as many airplanes as we might think, even though it might be called out in your Ops Lims. Just because your Ops Lims say that you can use it, the airplane and pilots still have to qualify per the AC requirements!
If you can satisfy all of the requirements, then use it and enjoy.
Paul
__________________
Paul F. Dye
Editor at Large - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)
http://Ironflight.com
Last edited by Ironflight : 08-26-2020 at 07:04 AM.
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08-26-2020, 07:59 AM
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Jazz Town, USA, TX
Posts: 501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lr172
Need to be careful here. This guy is not a CFI and you likely don't have insurance coverage until after your 5 hours of flying with him. If you wish to be insured, your buddy must be the PIC. In that case, you likely do not have the qual's to be a QP. If you are the pilot, your buddy can be the QP. But now you have an issue with the insurance company if an accident occurs, as you haven't met the requirements of your policy.
Things are different when the QP is also a CFI and the policy asks for x hours of dual. There might be some loop holes to allow the QP to operate as PIC. I never study'ed that aspect deeply.
Larry
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Not sure what's needed to be the QP. Tailwheel endorsement, with an ATP rating. More flight hours than I care to remember.
edit: I would meet all requirements, except total flight hours in the last 2 months is 10. Total flight time in the last 12 months is 10. If you have less than 40 hours in the last 12 months, you are automatically disqualified.
Can the DAR make an amendment to this rule?
__________________
Annual dues paid - 6-13-2020
Last edited by TXFlyGuy : 08-26-2020 at 08:38 AM.
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08-26-2020, 08:00 AM
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Jazz Town, USA, TX
Posts: 501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight
I am guessing that you are not talking about an RV here, or we’d al know the “factory chief pilot” that you are talking about. That’s OK - everyone is here to learn.
However, you have to read AC 90-116 very carefully - in summary, the airplane has to be built EXACTLY to the kit specifications, and with an engine as specified by the kit company. It has to be a kit that is listed in the “Revised Listing of Amateur-Built Aircraft Kits” (essentially, the list of airplanes that meet the 51% rule - but it must be specifically listed).
A fuel flow check documents th maximum gallons/hour that the fuel system can flow - you have to use the pumps (or gravity) to flow into a bucket and do the measurement. This test is listed in the FAA Flight Test Advisory Circular.
Unusable fuel is how much is still in teh system after the engine quits, yes. Figuring that out can take a little math of How much you put in initially, then how much you put back in after the engine quits (becasue it is not always the same as “how much you can drain out after the engine quits - there is a difference between unusable and untrainable....).
Read the entire AC90-116 - it is not just a “grab a qualified pilot and go flying” program - it is a measured, carefully thought out test program that surprisingly doesn’t apply to as many airplanes as we might think, even though it might be called out in your Ops Lims. Just because your Ops Lims say that you can use it, the airplane and pilots still have to qualify per the AC requirements!
If you can satisfy all of the requirements, then use it and enjoy.
Paul
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Thanks for the info! Big help in giving good direction how to proceed.
__________________
Annual dues paid - 6-13-2020
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08-26-2020, 09:54 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXFlyGuy
Not sure what's needed to be the QP. Tailwheel endorsement, with an ATP rating. More flight hours than I care to remember.
edit: I would meet all requirements, except total flight hours in the last 2 months is 10. Total flight time in the last 12 months is 10. If you have less than 40 hours in the last 12 months, you are automatically disqualified.
Can the DAR make an amendment to this rule?
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No, and neither can an FAA inspector.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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08-26-2020, 10:13 AM
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Jazz Town, USA, TX
Posts: 501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel
No, and neither can an FAA inspector.
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I thought so.
So in my case a QP (Factory Test Pilot) will do the initial AIT.
b. Scenario 2. Another pilot tests the aircraft, then the QP brings the BP up to speed. In this scenario, the BP decides to have another pilot do all of the aircraft testing required by the ITP. Though highly recommended, this pilot need not be a QP, since the flights will be conducted with a sole occupant on board. Now that the test aircraft has performed all of the required AIT items outlined in the ITP, the appropriate airframe logbook entry is made. Once the AIT items are completed, a QP, who may or may not be the same individual who conducted the initial tests, accompanies the BP in flight. The BP then personally performs, in the test aircraft, all of the required BPML items outlined in the ITP and makes the appropriate airframe logbook entry. At this point, both the BP and the test aircraft have completed the requirements for the ITP, so the qualifications of the additional pilot are reduced to the OP level.
So does the Builder Pilot need to meet any special requirements here, other than currency requirements such as a BFR and landings?
__________________
Annual dues paid - 6-13-2020
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08-26-2020, 11:17 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Clermont, FL
Posts: 565
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I'd make sure that you have a very clear understanding (in writing) with your insurance company as to what sort of time you need. If it's just 5 hours in type, then you'll be legal (however foolish it may be to not secure proper transition training) after that amount of PIC time - which riding in back with a non-CFI QP upfront will not get you. If you need 5 hours dual in type, then only a CFI can do it for you, no matter how much time/experience your QP may have.
Why not do it right and just go get a proper checkout rather than trying to see whether the process can be shortcut with the non-CFI QP?
__________________
Ken
RV-8 N118KB (#81125) - Sold
RV-14A N114KB (#140494) - Sold
RV-14A.com
N114KB Build Site
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08-26-2020, 12:24 PM
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Jazz Town, USA, TX
Posts: 501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbalch
I'd make sure that you have a very clear understanding (in writing) with your insurance company as to what sort of time you need. If it's just 5 hours in type, then you'll be legal (however foolish it may be to not secure proper transition training) after that amount of PIC time - which riding in back with a non-CFI QP upfront will not get you. If you need 5 hours dual in type, then only a CFI can do it for you, no matter how much time/experience your QP may have.
Why not do it right and just go get a proper checkout rather than trying to see whether the process can be shortcut with the non-CFI QP?
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No shortcuts. The insurance company requires that I get 5 hours with the company test pilot. This is the checkout time. And it will be a proper and thorough checkout. They know he is not a CFI. And they know the test pilot very, very well.
__________________
Annual dues paid - 6-13-2020
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08-26-2020, 12:50 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 5,297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXFlyGuy
Not sure what's needed to be the QP. Tailwheel endorsement, with an ATP rating. More flight hours than I care to remember.
edit: I would meet all requirements, except total flight hours in the last 2 months is 10. Total flight time in the last 12 months is 10. If you have less than 40 hours in the last 12 months, you are automatically disqualified.
Can the DAR make an amendment to this rule?
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Let test pilot do the first 8 or so hours to get past the first gate of the program. Once that is done, an Additional Pilot (AP) can fly with the main pilot. The AP requirements aren't really more than a PPL and medical. QP is only required for that first phase of Phase I. Hours and specific test completion create the move to the second phase of the APP, where APs and QPs are allowed.
Larry
__________________
N64LR - RV-6A / IO-320, Flying as of 8/2015
N11LR - RV-10, Flying as of 12/2019
Last edited by lr172 : 08-26-2020 at 12:52 PM.
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08-26-2020, 02:52 PM
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Jazz Town, USA, TX
Posts: 501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lr172
Let test pilot do the first 8 or so hours to get past the first gate of the program. Once that is done, an Additional Pilot (AP) can fly with the main pilot. The AP requirements aren't really more than a PPL and medical. QP is only required for that first phase of Phase I. Hours and specific test completion create the move to the second phase of the APP, where APs and QPs are allowed.
Larry
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Great! Thanks for the info. My test pilot will fly the first 15 hours, so we should be good to go.
Thanks.
__________________
Annual dues paid - 6-13-2020
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