VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.

  #71  
Old 05-04-2020, 07:33 PM
gmcjetpilot's Avatar
gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,568
Default

I was a CFI and student was ready for check ride. We went out for last flight review before his check ride, a confidence builder. We departed Boeing field and went West, to do air work and some T/O work at Bremerton (PWT), West of Seattle on the Olympic peninsula. After we finished the planned lesson, going back East toward Boeing Field (BFI) at about 1500 ft MSL, to stay below SeaTac (SEA) Class B, we passed by Vashon Muni airport, 2000' grass strips with trees all sides. It's on Vashon island in the Puget sound. You can see downtown Seattle from there. It is a challenge to land there with an engine.

I pulled the power to idle near Vashon and announced engine failure. https://www.airnav.com/airport/2S1 [Read the additional Remarks, look at photo and terminal chart in link ]

Cub landing Vashon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9aF7CuaSpU
Maule landing Vashon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cjk36mDERtQ
Landing and taking off to the South: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVZVJNS9r2s
Vintage Waco Bi-Plane landing Vashon: https://youtu.be/NFFdbmfY6EA

We just past Vashon to the North of the Field about to go over the Puget sound water. Without issue the student made a right turn back towards Vashon, setting up best glide, while trouble shooting. He was high on a LH dog leg to Runway 17. Using flaps, S-turns slipping he landed dead stick at Vashon to the South. I was proud. He did everything I taught him.

Now the problem (CFI in right seat me). C152's are not a power house, two adult men and full fuel we were under gross but not by much. Now don't judge, C152's are NOT not that big of a dog as you might think. At gross, SL, STD day they are typical or better than many light GA planes. However the C152 we were in that day was an Aerobat. It weights more than a regular C152, but we were still under gross. Unknown to me the airplane was about to have an engine overhaul. This 115HP Lyc O-235 was tired tired tired.

Although it was a sunny (for Seattle that is broken or overcast with holes) it had rained a lot the day before, a lot. Vashon is a grass strip and was a bit wet.

So we landed South and took off North on 35, winds were light but favored North T/O. Student taxis to get full length, configures 10 degree flaps, runs up, and starts take-off. The wet grass made acceleration sluggish, more than I expected. Between being near gross, the weak engine and warm humid field conditions (about 300 field Elev) it was struggling. The manual would be about 700 foot ground roll and 1300 foot to clear 50' obstacle. We had over 2000 feet. For ground roll on dry grass add 15%. about 800 feet, total 1400 feet to clear obstacle. The grass was not dry and the trees were above 50', but there was another factor.....

Student used good soft field technique, 10 degree flaps, broke ground, accelerated in ground effect, but he got too low and skipped off the ground at a wet spot scrubbing speed. We were back airborne and he rotated to Vx. When the student touched down during T/O run, I should have told him to reject the T/O. That was my second mistake. The first mistake was not considering field conditions and landing in the first place. Once we had the field made during practice engine out, we could have balk the landing and the lesson would have been effective.

So we now are climbing more than half way down the runway, committed. I could tell the trees at departure end were coming (even though I could not see them with the nose up). Keep in mind the proverbial AFM/POH "50' obstacle" can be 100' tall in Washington state.

I took the plane from the student (first and only time I urgently took a plane from a student in my CFI days). I banked left about 45 degree heading change, where there was a low spot in the tree tops. There is a house there. The clearing with tall trees displaced away from runway gave more room to climb than straight ahead. I am sure if the folks were home they were thrilled.

I got a few intermittent stall beeps in the turn, but we were climbing. This is where minimum controllable airspeed practice pays off. I watch the tree tops that were on the straight out departure out my right side window, slightly above our altitude. We climbed out safely on our left 45 departure. I accelerated to Vy, cleaned up, gave the plane back to student and calmly said, I'll explain on the ground. Pretty sure the right side of my face was sweating. "Let's go home" I said.

Student made a turn to East straight across the Puget sound to BFI at 1000' MSL to stay below SEA Class B. To get into BFI you have to drop to 800MSL to say under Bravo. This arrival from West you can't see Boeing Field (a very large airport), due to a ridge you cross at only a few 100' AGL. Once past the ridge at "the reservoir" you are mid-field 90 degrees from the downwind leg. Depending on wind you make a 90 degree turn for left or right down wind. We landed, safely on the ground at Boeing Field about 5 mins after our Vashon "Pucker-1" departure.

It was poor judgement to do a practice forced landing to full stop without planning. It was spontaneous, which is a bad thing in airplanes. The other C152's in the schools fleet with lighter basic empty weight, stronger engines, on a dry 2000 ft grass runway would be OK. However with all things considered, a C-152 does not leave a lot of extra room on short obstacle fields even with dry turf. This was way closer than I liked. I only went back to Vashon with students in C-172's and no recent rain, and only on request. I recall students were not allowed to go in there solo.

My student passed his Pvt check ride. (Proud to say all my students did.) As for the Aerobat, I saw her in the hanger next day with the engine off for an overhaul. That is when I realized it was a tired high time TBO engine. This was 27 years ago and still remember it. I looked at Photos of Vashon today. I'm glad to see it is still there, and they have clear cut the trees to the North end, and topped trees on the South end. They also built more hangers. I found 4 accidents in the last few years near or at Vashon, 3 related to takeoff and the soft (wet) runway. Here are two.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...=HTML&IType=LA

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...=HTML&IType=CA

https://www.airport-data.com/images/...001/001120.jpg

__________________
George
Raleigh, NC Area
RV-4, RV-7, ATP, CFII, MEI, 737/757/767

2021 Dues Paid

Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 05-12-2020 at 01:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 05-05-2020, 10:54 AM
Droopy Droopy is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: AZ
Posts: 44
Default

George,

I got my first aerobatic time in that Aerobat about 30 years ago. Wonder if we ever crossed paths...
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 05-05-2020, 11:20 AM
Jamie's Avatar
Jamie Jamie is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,295
Default

A good while ago when they were still doing "position and hold" at class D towered airports, a friend of mine, Larry, was given such an instruction so he taxied onto a runway. Another airplane missed the turn off on his landing roll which meant he had to taxi all the way to the end of the runway and he wasn't being quick about it, so my friend sat there on the centerline in his Bonanza.

A student pilot in a C172 was on final. Remember Larry is holding on the runway. Paraphrasing the conversation here.

Tower: "Cessna XXX go around"
Cessna: "Cessna XXX going around"

Some time passes.

Tower: "Cessna XXX, GO AROUND"
Cessna: "Cessna XXX is going around"

A little more time.

Tower: "Cessna XXX, GO AROUND NOW, make right traffic"
Cessna: "Cessna XXX, I'm going around the right"

As Larry told the story, he was getting understandably nervous. He said he looks out and just about ground level the Cessna passes him on the right, re-aligns with the runway, and lands.

RIP, Larry. Far too young. Alzheimer's sucks.
__________________
"What kind of man would live where there is no daring? I don't believe in taking foolish chances but nothing can be accomplished without taking any chance at all." - Charles A. Lindbergh
Jamie | RV-7A First Flight: 7/27/2007 (Sold)
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 05-05-2020, 11:31 AM
Mel's Avatar
Mel Mel is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 11,214
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
A good while ago when they were still doing "position and hold" at class D towered airports, a friend of mine, Larry, was given such an instruction so he taxied onto a runway. Another airplane missed the turn off on his landing roll which meant he had to taxi all the way to the end of the runway and he wasn't being quick about it, so my friend sat there on the centerline in his Bonanza.
A student pilot in a C172 was on final. Remember Larry is holding on the runway. Paraphrasing the conversation here.
Tower: "Cessna XXX go around"
Cessna: "Cessna XXX going around"
Some time passes.
Tower: "Cessna XXX, GO AROUND"
Cessna: "Cessna XXX is going around"
A little more time.
Tower: "Cessna XXX, GO AROUND NOW, make right traffic"
Cessna: "Cessna XXX, I'm going around the right"
As Larry told the story, he was getting understandably nervous. He said he looks out and just about ground level the Cessna passes him on the right, re-aligns with the runway, and lands.
RIP, Larry. Far too young. Alzheimer's sucks.
I don't understand the confusion. After all, the Cessna went around him to the right! Did he not?
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century. Over 1,000 certifications accomplished. Discount for Veterans, Law Enforcement, Fire Fighters.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 05-05-2020, 02:37 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is online now
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 7,851
Default

Yep. This one ranks right up there with the Captain who decided to abort the landing, and called for ?takeoff power?. The First officer promptly took the power off.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 05-05-2020, 05:47 PM
tjo tjo is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: La Center,wa
Posts: 246
Default

It's amazing how much cognitive ability you lose when stressed. Back when I had maybe 150 hrs, I was asked to fly my Cessna 150 over to PDX for a Horizon Air sponsored Boy and Girl Scout aviation day. No problem, I said, but inside was really stressed about landing at PDX. Flight over went great, day went great, but winds picking up in the afternoon to gusting to 19kt crosswind had me nervous. Did my preflight, weather check, etc, distracted by the stress of navigating around the airport amongst the big boys, and dealing with the wind. Managed to communicate well enough to get all the way to the hold short line and was instructed to "position and hold". At that time, I had no idea what that meant, so I asked. The reply was to "disregard and hold position", rather gruffly. At this time the radio chatter was coming hard and fast (at least to a relative newbie used to uncontrolled airports). It is now about 4:30 in the afternoon and the airport was getting busy with incoming traffic. OK, I'll just wait. After the departing plane was gone, and another landed, and traffic was stacking up behind me, I was cleared for takeoff! Cool, finally out of here... except as soon as I started my takeoff run, the oil check door started flapping in the breeze pretty violently! ****, I got on the radio and told them I had an issue and exited the runway at the first exit. Handed off to ground for coordination. Now, I'm a gnat on a huge piece of asphalt with big boys all around and no idea where I am or where to go... Got out of the plane (copilot holding the brakes), got the door closed up, got back in line worried about getting blown into next week by someone's exhaust blast, finally make it back to the hold short line. This time, the clearance was "cleared for takeoff, no delay". OK, you don't have to tell me twice; it was pretty much full throttle from the line and off as soon as I could get the thing in the air. At about 200' AGL on runway 10L I was instructed to "turn left to 010"... in other words, "get lost dude!"

Stressful, but I've never left the door open again!

Tim
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:23 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.