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  #21  
Old 03-19-2020, 06:23 PM
rockwoodrv9 rockwoodrv9 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Meridian ID, Aspen CO, Okemos MI
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Thanks Ed. I appreciate it.
Great ideas for training.
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  #22  
Old 03-19-2020, 06:41 PM
jrs14855 jrs14855 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lake Havasu City AZ
Posts: 2,393
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FARs do not require a current CFI for aerobatic instruction or instruction required under part 135 or 121.FAA in the past has allowed a pilot without a current medical to provide aerobatic instruction as long as the trainee is qualified to perform as pilot in command.
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  #23  
Old 03-19-2020, 08:22 PM
jliltd jliltd is offline
 
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Location: Rancho San Lorenzo
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I liked all the E3 maneuvers presented, and think they have positive merit, especially for pilots who haven't within their own mind arisen to enlightenmemt in all things aeronautical (which has more to do with Type A leanings than hours and experience). I saw one of Ed's ideas aimed at safe flying on the Federal Register last year and he has a lot of instruction and teaching experience. I respect his efforts. Notwithstanding that, personally I would like to see spins returned to the required maneuvers for CFI and even the Private Pilot rating. There is a reason why spins were required in the past and there have been many reasons why LOC accidents have increased over time; the removal of spin training *might* contribute to the statistics. Spins, in a controlled environment with proper equipment, are benign and fun. Steady-state muti-turn spins in many ways more instructive than "eminent recovery". So maybe we also need to step it up a bit. E3 maneuvers in standard/utility category aircraft followed by spins in aerobatic category aircraft. Or their experimental equivalents as determined by EAB design and experience.
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  #24  
Old 03-19-2020, 09:26 PM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Wischmeyer View Post
My signature on VAF.com indicates ATP/CFII (includes gliders and both single and multi-engine sea) but doesn’t mention that my Ph.D. is from MIT, nor that the logbook shows 200 makes and models flown, nor that I’ve published more than 100 pilot reports, nor that I’ve presented original research at three international aviation safety conferences, nor that I taught aviation safety in grad school for two years.
You have gone full non sequitur "appeal to authority". No pee-pee match, I have Grad degree in Mechanical engineering, published reports and trained 100's of pilots and flown a wide range of planes from small to large jets. All that is irrelevant to the topic. I missed your signature.

Quote:
I’ve flown all RVs except the -3, and never had any problems stopping a full aileron deflection bank at 60°. I flew 350 hours in my RV-4 and 100 hours in my RV-8.
Yep 900 hours in RV's of all types. Oh I see you roll to 60 degree with full aileron and stop at 60 degrees bank. Right I do this when doing aerobatics, 8 point hesitation roll. Got it. The part about stopping at 60 degree bank got glossed over.

Quote:
David St. George and I frequently communicate on these kinds of topics, and I have several times given him latest and greatest copies of E3. I don’t know what the source of his material is – from me, from somebody else, from some uncredited historical source, or that he thought up himself – but my objective is to get this material out there to help keep our friends alive. At this point, I don’t really care who gets the credit.
I have no problem with training and good ideas. I have stole great ideas from many pilots and instructors. There is nothing proprietary about any of it.

Quote:
It's also the case that E3 teaches things that are not in any existing syllabus, and are not taught in aerobatics.
With respect disagree. All your maneuvers are well known, Your 90/60 Serpentine as you teach it is slightly different than FAA Step Turns. All this is defined in FAA guidance, FAA-H-8083-3B, Chap 9, "Performance maneuvers". Consider adding Turns on and aournd a point, Lazy 8's, Chandelle.
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...11_afh_ch9.pdf

Quote:
Remember -- don't try E3 without an E3 qualified instructor. I've been surprised once or twice teaching E3, and the material presented does not mention the requisite risk management.
I'm a 14,000 hour ATP, +2000 hours GA dual given including Inst, ME, aerobatics. So are you saying I should not practice with our one of your approved E3 instructors which there is really no such "official" qualification. Risk management and teaching is part of all CFI tools. I gather you think your maneuvers are dangerous or beyond a competent Private pilots abilities. Again all of the maneuvers are well inside Private and commercial pilot maneuvers. With that said I am for people getting duel instruction.

There is nothing really unique or risky about these maneuvers as long as the pilot does not exceed aircraft limitations and does it at a safe altitude. RV pilots go up and "teach" their-self aerobatics all the time, which I don't recommend and has high risks. Dual with a good instructor is always worthwhile.

Quote:
The invitations stands to come fly E3 with me in Savannah.
Thanks for the invite, I'm good. Please keep teaching aviation safety. My take is "E3" is a not unique or a quantum leap in flight training, but I wish you luck. When FAA puts "E3" into the PTS (now superseded by Airplane Airman Certification Standards) I'll follow that. As I recommend people who want to improve progress, get instrument and commercial ratings, and take some aerobatic lessons. It will make you a safer more competent pilot.
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Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 03-19-2020 at 09:31 PM.
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  #25  
Old 03-20-2020, 05:34 PM
McStevens McStevens is offline
 
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Location: Edmonds, WA
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Cool video, thanks for sharing. These mostly look like fun exercises, but they don't really look like they need special instruction before attempting, if you're proficient anyway. Good practice but a little oversold, the marketing disclaimers don't help.

Requiring instructors to demonstrate "E3 proficiency"? Yeah, no.
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  #26  
Old 03-20-2020, 05:43 PM
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Ed_Wischmeyer Ed_Wischmeyer is offline
 
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Location: Savannah, GA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McStevens View Post
Cool video, thanks for sharing. These mostly look like fun exercises, but they don't really look like they need special instruction before attempting, if you're proficient anyway. Good practice but a little oversold, the marketing disclaimers don't help.

Requiring instructors to demonstrate "E3 proficiency"? Yeah, no.
The video only showed a small portion of the 100 or so E3 exercises. There's lots more to E3, even in the basic set of 10, so don't draw conclusions from just the video.

Subject pilots can really surprise you when attempting E3. I have been. And there's lots of instructors for whom E3 is way outside their comfort zones. Omitting the disclaimers would be irresponsible, especially for planes with frisky stalls and spin susceptibility.

No reflection on you as I don't know you, but lotsa folks have egos beyond their skills... check the accident records.

C'mon down to Savannah and fly E3 with me. I expect your opinions would evolve...

Ed
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Previously RV-4, RV-8, RV-8A, AirCam, Cessna 175
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  #27  
Old 03-20-2020, 07:59 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Location: Livermore, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jliltd View Post
personally I would like to see spins returned to the required maneuvers for CFI and .
Spins are a required maneuver for a cfi certificate. The examiner may accept a logbook endorsement of ?spin training given...? in lieu of an actual demonstration.

Although spins are not required for private students, I?ve always suggested to my primary students that we do a few (dual) prior to solo stall practice. No one has ever said no.
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  #28  
Old 05-03-2020, 02:48 PM
BDFLYER BDFLYER is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 18
Default E3 + Other Approaches

First, thanks to @Ed_Wischmeyer for working this angle. There is little downside to broadening the attention played on ensuring pilots have operating skills in larger envelopes. In similar vain, we have the safepilots.org program which gmcjetpilot referenced. We also have the Pilot Exercise Program from the well established Pilot Workshops team.

All three approaches purport to achieve similar ends. Clearly the safepilots program is targeted at CFI's and broadening the knowledge and aptitude of the CFI community.

In contrast, PilotWorkshop's program is tailored to the GA pilot with 15 exercise groups, with fairly detailed descriptions, videos, and supporting materials (which makes the program a fairly low hurdle for low-time GA pilots such as myself).

If the goal is to address in a more specific way the curse of LOC-I events, then both the safepilots and the PilotWorkshop approaches are necessary. We need CFIs with the advanced knowledge of the maneuvers and intended results, as well as the common sense and guided approach that comes with the PilotWorkshop program.

What I have not seen from Ed, and perhaps it's my ignorance, is the list of the recommended procedures under the "E3" umbrella. Outside of the video, I have only seen a short article in one of the Twin Commander magazines.

Perhaps, if I can be so bold, expanding the exercises in both the safepilots and the PilotWorkshop programs would be far more beneficial to the GA community than another early-stage framework. Perhaps Ed would consider a partnership with Mark Robidoux at PilotWorkshops, and David St. George at safepilots?

In any case, if the objective is pilot safety, then I would suggest it's time to publish the recommended maneuvers in a forum allowing for some reasoned debate, allowing for the honing of the program to a final state.
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  #29  
Old 05-03-2020, 04:55 PM
artrose artrose is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Antonio area
Posts: 86
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Sorry, I didn't see anything in that video that doesn't take place, in some sort or fashion, practically every time I fly my RV. Actually, pretty boring.

We must think there's a whole bunch of seriously crappy pilots out there if the newly coined regular old flying stuff shown in that video is considered so valuable.

I don't get it?
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  #30  
Old 05-03-2020, 06:44 PM
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Ed_Wischmeyer Ed_Wischmeyer is offline
 
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Location: Savannah, GA
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Art Rose, yes, there are lots of crappy pilots out there, including CFIs. Those pilots are the target audience, the ones who will benefit most from E3. And there are also a fair number of RV loss of control fatalities. In fact, one of the best-witnessed low speed spiral fatalities was an RV.

There’s lots more to E3 than can be presented in a short webinar – including a study of 551 RV-series NTSB reports, each of which was carefully read and re-read to generate meaningful statistics. No surprise, those statistics did not follow the party line. As for the webinar, if you don’t get it, no problem. E3 material could easily fill a full year grad school course. When the pandemic cools off, come fly with me in Savannah, your RV-6A or my RV-9A. Free.

BDFLYER (Christopher Kelley), thanks for your kind words. Meaningfully getting the word out about E3 is a challenge. David St. George and I talk regularly, I have sent him copies of my work, and his target audience is the SAFE membership, CFIs. I’m addressing the rest of the world. I have not met Mark Robidoux, but E3 is in-flight experience, not ground school.

I agree that “honing of the program to a final state” is highly desirable, but I would suggest going a step beyond – there are many styles of flying, plus many airplanes have quirks. E3 will save the most lives if it is not constrained to one set of maneuvers flown in exactly one way. In fact, E3 is exercises, not maneuvers, and deliberately does not have completion standards. E3 will be most effective if it is initially distributed to those who want to actively partner in its development, rather than just put out there for everybody to take pot shots at it.

Thanks to both of you for your comments!!
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RV-9A at KSAV (Savannah, GA; dual G3X Touch with autopilot, GTN650, GTX330ES, GDL52 ADSB-In)
Previously RV-4, RV-8, RV-8A, AirCam, Cessna 175
ATP CFII PhD, so I have no excuses when I screw up
2020 dues slightly overpaid
Retired - "They used to pay me to be good, now I'm good for nothing."

Last edited by Ed_Wischmeyer : 05-03-2020 at 06:47 PM.
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