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  #91  
Old 04-20-2020, 03:54 PM
bizpilot bizpilot is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Falmouth Airpark, Mass (Cape Cod area)
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Anybody ask if he had the anti splat upgrade?
  #92  
Old 04-20-2020, 05:20 PM
sblack sblack is offline
 
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Location: Montreal
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I find it much easier to judge the sink rate etc from a camera fixed to ground reference than for a camera attached to the airplane. To me it looked like there was a sudden rise in the runway after first contact and the airplane landed flat,which would indicate that it was well above stall speed. But from that perspective it is hard to tell. That could be an illusion. The touchdown attitude should have been more nose high. A nose low high speed contact with the nose strut would most likely break it.

These nose wheels seem like they are designed to handle taxi loads and not much else. There have been so many that have folded. To have such a horrible injury is heart breaking for everyone.
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Old school simple VFR RV 4, O-320, wood prop, MGL iEfis Lite
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  #93  
Old 04-20-2020, 06:59 PM
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emsvitil emsvitil is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: SoCal
Posts: 318
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Can the larger RV14 wheel and fork be used?

Would it help?
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  #94  
Old 04-20-2020, 08:16 PM
Captain Avgas Captain Avgas is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,868
Default Placebo effect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tankerpilot75 View Post

My first question is did the RV have installed the Antisplat nose gear bracket? I ask this because two summers ago coming back from Oshkosh I landed with an extreme aft cg and bounced mains to nose excessively (porpoise) and did an immediate go around. I then repeated the porpoise/go around experience several times until application of full forward nose down trim. This helped enough to offset the worse effects of an aft cg condition. (I wrote up my experience and lessons learned in VAF at the time).

Later on I checked my nose gear and discovered significant scrapping on the bottom forward section of the fairing; which I strongly suspect was caused by that landing. I state this as a testament to the value of the Antisplat nose gear bracket.
Ian Smith’s RV6A did not have an Anti-splat device installed. This question has been asked several times on this thread presumably because there are people who believe the device may have made a difference in this accident.

My own personal opinion is that in this case the device would have made no difference. To be honest, and I do have an Anti-Splat on my nosegear, I am not convinced that the device actually works. I suspect it’s main benefit is just the placebo effect...it probably doesn’t do anything but people feel better anyway.

A lot of people misunderstand the way that the Anti-Splat nose brace is designed to work. Firstly, under normal operating conditions the brace is not acting as a brace at all. People who have installed the device will remember that there is a gap between the “support cups” of the device and the nose gear leg. Under normal operating conditions the nose gear is free to flex (and therefore to oscillate wildly). According to the Anti-Splat designer the device is only intended to come into contact with (and brace) the nose leg once the nose leg has yielded and thus fully and permanently deformed (transitioned from elastic to plastic deformation).

In your case above you had an incident and noticed scraping on the bottom of your nose wheel fairing. You felt intuitively that the Anti-Splat device must have saved your bacon. But maybe not. In your case you should have removed the gear leg fairing and inspected the gear leg. If the Anti-Splat device had actually braced the gear leg there would have been obvious witness marks on the powder coating. Of course in that event you could assume that the nose gear had permanently yielded and that replacement would be required.

Your experience is not unique. I had a friend who did a very bad bounced landing in his RV last year and was totally convinced that his Anti-Splat brace had saved the day. He went on and on about it until I suggested we whip off his nose leg fairing and inspect the nose leg. Sure enough, not the slightest sign of any contact between the brace and the nose leg. The powder coating was untouched. Not the smallest scratch. As I said....placebo effect.
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Last edited by Captain Avgas : 04-21-2020 at 06:36 PM.
  #95  
Old 04-21-2020, 07:44 AM
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Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sblack View Post
There have been so many that have folded.
And yet there have been orders of magnitude more that *haven't* folded. I've been watching this movie for 20 years and i'm still not convinced we have identified all the things that could cause a nosewheel to fail, but with the number of nosewheels flying, it still seems to be a tiny number of accidents in the grand scheme of things.
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1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
  #96  
Old 04-21-2020, 07:47 AM
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Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Avgas View Post
...My own personal opinion is that in this case the device would have made no difference. To be honest, and I do have an Anti-Splat on my nosegear, I am not convinced that the device actually works. I suspect it?s main benefit is just the placebo effect...it probably doesn?t do anything but people feel better anyway....
I share this opinion. It seems to me to be too small of a support to provide the reinforcement it claims.
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1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
  #97  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:22 AM
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Raymo Raymo is offline
 
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Location: Richmond Hill, GA (KLHW)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emsvitil View Post
Can the larger RV14 wheel and fork be used?

Would it help?
There is now an option to use the stronger nose gear on the -7A. Retrofit is not cheap or easy but the option is there. New motor mount and gear are required.

https://www.vansaircraft.com/2019/06...a-finish-kits/
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RV-7A - Slider - N495KL - First flt 27 Jan 17
O-360-A4M w/ AFP FM-150 FI, Dual PMags, Vetterman Trombone Exh, SkyTech starter, BandC Alt (PP failed after 226 hrs)
Catto 3 blade NLE, FlightLines Interior, James cowl, plenum & intake, Anti-Splat -14 seat mod and nose gear support
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  #98  
Old 04-21-2020, 09:53 AM
Bo1000 Bo1000 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Austin
Posts: 28
Default What bites into the dirt?

So what happens after the nose gear collapses? What bites into the terrain and causes the plane to nose over? Is there a cheap, no-drag mod that would result in skidding on the nose rather than a flipping?
  #99  
Old 04-21-2020, 06:38 PM
RVDan RVDan is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Frederick, MD
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IMO, The end of the nose strut where the big nut is catches the ground and then the strut bends backwards and folds under digging in hard. The principle mass inertia is well above the gear, and the airplane flips over the nose strut which is acting like an arresting hook. Anti Splat has a nose skid for under the nut, but that isn?t going to do much on turf. Need a bigger tire on the nose to reduce the risk. Even if one lands perfectly, if the small nose tire finds a hole on roll out it won?t be pretty. Someone on this list had a slo mo flip over on final rollout when the nose wheel hit a hole in a paved runway. Even a bigger tire will do the same thing if the hole or rut is big enough.

The same happens to other airplanes, just bigger tires are more tolerant of smaller holes and the Cessnas and Pipers the main difference flip over wise, is that the nose strut breaks off, and doesn?t act like an anchor to stop the airplane causing it to flip over.
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  #100  
Old 04-21-2020, 06:54 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Location: Livermore, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVDan View Post
I
The same happens to other airplanes, just bigger tires are more tolerant of smaller holes and the Cessnas and Pipers the main difference flip over wise, is that the nose strut breaks off, and doesn?t act like an anchor to stop the airplane causing it to flip over.
+1. Take a walk around the airport with a flashlight and mirror, and look at the firewalls of 182's. You will see a substantial number (I have *heard* 50%) that have an after-market X shaped repair to their firewall - from a nose first landing.
<rant> IMHO we have managed to raise an entire generation (maybe two or three) that does not know how to land an airplane. Go to the airport and watch. How many land with the nose too high? Almost none. How many land with the nose lower than optimum? Almost everyone. Airspeed well above stall, nose barely off the ground, when the mains make contact. And a few "landings" are nose wheel first. A few months ago I watched a guy (I won't call him a pilot) in a multi-million dollar Pilatus bounce after landing nose first. (He barely salvaged the second landing). Now add in a smaller than normal nose wheel, and anything other than smooth hard paved runways, and there's a recipe for disaster. <end rant>.
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