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02-17-2020, 08:54 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brentwood, CA
Posts: 659
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I added some photos of the tips lit up with a power supply and also short video of the strobes going. My synopsis of the lights, albeit in the garage - on my substantially messy workbench, is that they're very bright in comparison to my HID's on the Baron and AeroSun's on my other RV - totally eyeball calibrated
After making up a pushbutton to simulate wig-wag and using a 12V power supply, I powered up the landing and taxi modules. I do note a slight delay when the landing modules light. I do agree it is a couple tenths of second. But then I connected both modules and let the wingtip wig tag module do its thing and they pulsed just fine - albeit with a gentle pulse - pulse. I didn't notice as much delay, almost imperceptible, on the taxi lights, so using those for WW might be an alternate option. They use the same light module for taxi, with two, as the landing, which has three, so maybe its all related to powering up the extra light module.
I don't have my VP-X module yet, but when I get it I'll try this out on the bench. In the meantime, I've asked Chad at Astronics for help with possibly extending the pulse time and slow down the wig-wig a little.
Build Log ZipTips
__________________
Ron Gawer
- RV10, Build in progress.
- RV12, N975G, "The Commuter"...many great hours and happy landings so far.
- Several others that are now just great memories for me.
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02-17-2020, 06:07 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rongawer
I don't have my VP-X module yet, but when I get it I'll try this out on the bench. In the meantime, I've asked Chad at Astronics for help with possibly extending the pulse time and slow down the wig-wig a little.
Build Log ZipTips
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I asked the same thing a while ago of him and it wasn't available then.
He's local to me, perhaps I try to meet up with him to show him the issue.
__________________
Matt
CFI / RV-10
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02-17-2020, 09:39 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brentwood, CA
Posts: 659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdrcrmatt
I asked the same thing a while ago of him and it wasn't available then.
He's local to me, perhaps I try to meet up with him to show him the issue.
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He told me they were hoping to do an update to the VP-X later this year, but look for any new features, which adjusting pulse time is on the list, in 2021 sometime. In the meantime, I'm going to wire up the built-in wig-wag so I can manual activate if pulsing these lights on the VP-X doesn't work out.
__________________
Ron Gawer
- RV10, Build in progress.
- RV12, N975G, "The Commuter"...many great hours and happy landings so far.
- Several others that are now just great memories for me.
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02-19-2020, 06:46 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brentwood, CA
Posts: 659
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Amperages and wire
I decided to hook up both wingtips last evening with my Fluke meter and do some testing and validation. I also did a thorough inspection of the entire tips and am pleased with the quality of design and construction. Note that the wingtips are made in the Czech Republic. And while the strobe, position and rear light modules are made by Aveo directly, the landing and taxi LED modules are custom made by Khatod in Italy; they have some of the coolest looking heat sink modules at about 3” long with a dozen spikes. (see Khatod Optical)
I found the following peak amperages for the separate light modules:
Landing: 2.51A
Taxi/Recog: 1.65A
NAV: .69A
Strobe: 1.52A
These current flows are per wing tip and both wingtips were within 0.01A of each other. I’m planning to install shielded wire in three bundles:
- 18GA-3C fo the two common ground leads from each wingtip and landing lights power.
- 20GA-3C for taxi, nav and strobe power
- 22GA-3C for wig-wag control, wig-wag sync and strobe sync
I could probably get away with using unshielded twisted pair, but the shielding, grounded at both ends, will be very quiet from an emission perspective. A tip to consider; ground the shield at both ends to keep the noise in (i.e. strobes), ground at the LRU end to keep the noise out (i.e. LEMO jacks). The Garmin installation manual does a great job of identifying shielding on their interconnection drawings and are a great resource. I do not ground any devices to the airframe except at my ground block and engine mount, rather I ground the shield to a ground wire, generally within the cable bundle...fine Navy training.
When using the internal wig-wag control, the taxi/recognition lights pulse quite nicely. I plan to install these on two separate power pins on my VP-X and then will also include a spot and wire for a separate Wig-Wag switch in the event the VP-X doesn’t pulse the recognition modules correctly.
I also noted that the landing modules do take about 0.2 seconds to go from 0 to full amperage whereas the taxi/recog modules take about 0.12 seconds.
If you’re really bored and want to become savvier on wiring, download and read the Navy Electricity and Electronics Training modules. I have a set on the shelf from 1979 - turns out they’ve made some updates in the last four decades and they have a new set available for download. Great stuff on wiring and grounding if you really want to go MILSPEC.
__________________
Ron Gawer
- RV10, Build in progress.
- RV12, N975G, "The Commuter"...many great hours and happy landings so far.
- Several others that are now just great memories for me.
Last edited by rongawer : 02-19-2020 at 08:13 AM.
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02-19-2020, 11:21 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: LA (Lower Alabama)
Posts: 267
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Grounding Both Ends of Shields?
Ron,
I'm not familiar with Navy ways (thanks for going that route, incidentally). In heavy industry we only shield one end due to potential (no pun intended) for a ground loop.
Do you know why they ground both sides? (Is the possibility for a ground loop mitigated by the short distance between grounded points and anticipated low differentials in voltage?
BTW, the tips are simply beautiful.
Thanks,
Mike
__________________
DUES REMINDER: JAN 2021
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02-19-2020, 09:22 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brentwood, CA
Posts: 659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJarreau
Ron,
I'm not familiar with Navy ways (thanks for going that route, incidentally). In heavy industry we only shield one end due to potential (no pun intended) for a ground loop.
Do you know why they ground both sides? (Is the possibility for a ground loop mitigated by the short distance between grounded points and anticipated low differentials in voltage?
BTW, the tips are simply beautiful.
Thanks,
Mike
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Thanks Mike.
The short version is that to create a ground loop, you need to have a difference in potentials between both ends of the circuit, which in this case would be one of end of the shielded cable versus the other. And that doesn’t exist in my installation. I’ll explain...
First off, a ship is ungrounded - every energized circuit, including shielding, has a ground or return phase that goes back to the source; this is done to prevent potential between human beings and steel decks and hull (which is a good thing in a wet environment).
Much like ships, airplanes are hulls too. So, you can have your “ship” essentially ungrounded by returning all grounds back to the source. This is commonly referred to as a two-wire system, which I use and advocate.
Incidentally, in my current career (pun intended), I build and manage power plants. We have both open (one end) and closed (both ends) grounded circuits for the various reasons we’re discussing. However, there are two different topics here, single wire vs two wire and open vs closed grounding. The thing is that you don’t have to only use one method for an airplane, especially a metal hull airframe. You can mix and match as needed by each system; it just makes it a little more complicated to ensure which systems are grounded which way and document, document, document...
I have a return ground for each load that runs back to a ground block that is a single ground point for the electrical system. Now, most airplanes don’t live in salt water (some do) and you can do a hybrid system which has some grounds to the hull, but I would limit this to only small loads that do not generate EMF. I would run my strobe lights back to ground, but having a stall warner go to hull ground would be fine.
For my circuits, significantly the wingtip lights we’re talking about, I have a ground wire contained within at least one wire bundle, and then I ground my shielding to that ground wire - not to the hull, although mathematically, you can ground both ends to the hull and have the same potential - assuming good conductivity of the airframe. The ground circuit wire ensures a common potential for the circuit, assuming a good copper wire, which has about 0.01 Ω per foot. This method eliminates the potential for a ground loop.
It’s well documented that both single wire and two wire systems work well, however the main advantage of a two wire system, which I use, is minimizing EMF, which creates the noise we hope to avoid. The downside is extra work, cost of the wire and the weight. There’s probably a primer war like forum somewhere for 2 vs 1 wire systems, but because you’ve asked, in my opinion, the effort is minimal (you’re already running one wire to the same spot), the cost is small compared to the total avionics package and the weight is also not significant on the aircraft; I calculated 5.5 pounds extra on my current RV. I want to point out that if you're building a composite or wood airframe, then your only option is a two wire system.
My evidence that my installation method is effective is that the three airplanes I’ve built were done the way I describe and are absolutely noise free. My latest RV (build #4) has a Garmin G3X system, and while running through the magnetometer test, I barely got any deflection while I stepped through the entire test. I’m hoping my latest build (likely my last) will have the same outcome.
My advice is to ground both ends to keep the noise in the circuit, and ground one end to keep the noise out of it...build on.
__________________
Ron Gawer
- RV10, Build in progress.
- RV12, N975G, "The Commuter"...many great hours and happy landings so far.
- Several others that are now just great memories for me.
Last edited by rongawer : 02-20-2020 at 11:24 AM.
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02-20-2020, 03:36 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: LA (Lower Alabama)
Posts: 267
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Interesting Reading
Ron,
Thanks for taking the time to educate me. I have intended to install 2 wire all along, but your write up makes good sense.
Best regards,
Mike
__________________
DUES REMINDER: JAN 2021
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02-28-2020, 07:03 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rongawer
Right...they do a little more than just light up the runway, although they do that with more directed light than any other landing light I?ve seen available for an RV - these do replace all of the exterior lights needed and is a complete kit, including Amphenol circular connectors and pins. Then take into account the cost of Van?s wingtips, your desired brand of landing lights, taxi lights, position lights (including rear), and strobes, plus all of the mounting hardware, wiring, connectors and lenses. If you price out units that will produce the same candella and deduct the unused parts from your kit, it?s not much more for these.
Then add the fact that the modules are already mounted, the fit on the wings and finish is good, will light up your world and just generally look cool, I consider it a good value, especially if you think about all the other stuff I?ve blown money on for airplanes (for a really good time, price out a starter adapter for a Continental IO-550).
I doubt there would be anything for me to notice as I will not have flown my RV before installing these, so I won?t have a reference to compare to. Why do you expect any effect on roll? They do have a minor winglet, but any effect at the wingtip would be induced on both sides. There isn?t any data or testing to show these winglets have any real effect, other than to create conversations... although I?m sure they have to be worth at least 10 knots...
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You mentioned recouping some of the cost by not having to buy vans wingtips and other parts. I?m getting ready to order my tail and QB wings. Will vans exclude their tips and deduct them from the price?
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02-28-2020, 12:42 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rongawer
I also noted that the landing modules do take about 0.2 seconds to go from 0 to full amperage whereas the taxi/recog modules take about 0.12 seconds.
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Thank you for taking the time to document that, again glad I'm not the only one experiencing the issue.
__________________
Matt
CFI / RV-10
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