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02-05-2020, 02:48 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mesa Arizona
Posts: 608
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I would be careful to not confuse hate with legitimate concern. I came into this menagerie with an open mind to propulsion options. It was right before an infamous incident involving an RV10 and an egg. I wasn't around for the early stages of that history but did study the aftermath, and it was littered with red flags.
I don't know the exact numbers but anytime a small fleet percentage has a disproportionate share of unfortunate results, it affects all of us directly in the pocketbook. It gets us in the insurance market, the resell market, the kit vendor health market, and the angry spouse market.
I believe that our E-A/B communities have a responsibility to care for each other, especially the old sages (which I hope to be considered some day), with regard to the new entrants and wannabes (which we vitally need replenishment from). Some love is perceived as tough. So be it.
There is value in innovation and wisdom in proven results. Ask Boeing.
__________________
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
RV-10 N24EV
KITPLANES Contributing Editor
Last edited by woxofswa : 02-05-2020 at 02:59 AM.
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02-05-2020, 06:02 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 5,766
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As someone intimately involved with auto conversions for over 25 years and flying one for 17, my advice for a long time has been for anyone contemplating one is to think long and hard. They should gather as much independent information as possible. If they don't have the mechanical background, it almost certainly won't turn out well in the end and even if they do, it still might not.
Few FWF engine package vendors know what they are doing over the broad spectrum required to make such a package reliable so one shouldn't think that you can just hand over a wad of cash and all will be well either.
Folks here are all adults and can make their own decisions. Some will be bad. That's life and unfortunately sometimes death.
There's a fine line between sage advice (hopefully from someone who's actually gone down the path and knows something) to innovation-killing attack. We've seen both here on VAF. Remember, some people don't have the same mission or goals as you do. Some really want to learn and do something different from the masses. I wouldn't condemn those folks for trying if they are well aware of the possible pitfalls before they start.
Regarding the Lloyd -10 accident. I posted an analysis of that here years ago. IMO, personality and decision making were more causal than the engine type up front if you look at the GPS data and NTSB report.
We've seen a few accidents (some also fatal) here with Lycoming powered RVs where people didn't follow good advice or show good judgement either. Some types of folks are just destined to go down this path with predictable results...
Last edited by rv6ejguy : 02-05-2020 at 07:42 AM.
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02-05-2020, 07:28 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sunman, IN
Posts: 2,189
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Nice
Nicely stated, Ross.
__________________
Bob
Aerospace Engineer '88
RV-10
Structure - 90% Done
Cabin Top - Aaarrghhh...
EFII System 32 - Done
297 HP Barrett Hung
ShowPlanes Cowl with Skybolts Fitted - Beautiful
Wiring...
Dues+ Paid 2019,...Thanks DR+
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02-05-2020, 09:04 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lake Country, B.C. Canada
Posts: 2,416
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one more point
?.ok, I always fly behind a Lyc, or an old Cont....but I have WAAAAAAY more experience overhauling, rebuilding, & troubleshooting small-block chevvies in stock cars.
I know almost NOTHING about my Lycoming.
Which one is safer for me to fly behind?
perhaps a question I don't want the answer to.
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Perry Y.
RV-9a - SOLD!....
Lake Country, BC
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02-05-2020, 09:11 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dublin, CA
Posts: 1,261
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As someone who often browses for sale aircraft while my build slowly progresses I will state an observation of mine which you might want to take into consideration. Non ?standard? engine configurations are often difficult to sell. I realize we never plan to sell our machines but life sometimes doesn?t go to plan. While you may decide the risk is reasonable others may not.
__________________
Ray Tonks
2020 Donation Paid
Titan IOX-370, Dual PMAGs, 9.6:1 Pistons, FM-150
RV-7 Fuselage in progress
* Cabin Interior - In progress
RV-7 SB Wings
* Both Wings fully skinned
* Fuel Tanks Complete - No leaks finally
* Ailerons Complete
* Flaps Complete
RV-7 Empennage - Complete (a little fiberglass work left)
Vans Training Kit # 2 - Complete
RV-7 Preview Plans
Vans Training Kit #1 - Complete
EAA Sheet Metal Class - Complete
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02-05-2020, 09:51 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 08A
Posts: 9,500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyboy1963
?.ok, I always fly behind a Lyc, or an old Cont....but I have WAAAAAAY more experience overhauling, rebuilding, & troubleshooting small-block chevvies in stock cars.
I know almost NOTHING about my Lycoming.
Which one is safer for me to fly behind?
perhaps a question I don't want the answer to.
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I though that way once upon a time. Trouble is, the basic powerplant is the easy part...
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 SS
Barrett IO-390
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02-05-2020, 10:49 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mesa Arizona
Posts: 608
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Ross,
I get what you're saying and can't disagree. However your resume and capability is far different than the average Van's customer. You can probably count on one hand the guys in your clubhouse.
However, the numbers don't lie. Something like 3 of the first 4 RV10 hull losses were alternative and the 4th flew into a thunderstorm.
I remember being an idealistic newbie about 14 years ago and espousing on this forum about changing Van's fugly seat belt system with something more like an automotive inertia reel system. Some guys have since done exactly that, but a poster whom I've grown to highly respect said such could very well be unwise and to "trust Van's". So I did and went stock Van's on the restraints.
Van's could no doubt sell a lot more kits to a broader audience if there were attractive propulsion packages at lower cost. So far they haven't embraced that route. Quite the contrary actually.
Back in the day I talked at length with Jan and Bud Warren who both had attractive pitches to a newbie like me but the comment about trusting Van's (from you) resonated and I went the Van's way and with the passage of time am ever so glad that I did. Now I'm saving to buy your system to add to it.
__________________
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
RV-10 N24EV
KITPLANES Contributing Editor
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02-05-2020, 01:17 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Garden City, Tx
Posts: 5,147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyboy1963
?.ok, I always fly behind a Lyc, or an old Cont....but I have WAAAAAAY more experience overhauling, rebuilding, & troubleshooting small-block chevvies in stock cars.
I know almost NOTHING about my Lycoming.
Which one is safer for me to fly behind?
perhaps a question I don't want the answer to.
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The one that has several million flight hours behind it, if you are not intimately familiar with working on it.
On the "hater" mentality, it's definitely evident among folks that dislike auto engine conversion, but not limited to them for certain. I unfortunately caught a LOT of heat from folks when I decided to put an IO-360 on my 9A, with one guy (former VAF member) going so far as sending me an email telling me that he fully intended to sue my estate after I killed myself for the rise it would cause on his insurance rates.
__________________
Greg Niehues - SEL, IFR, Repairman Cert.
Garden City, TX VAF 2020 dues paid 
N16GN flying 700 hrs and counting; IO360, SDS, WWRV200, Dynon HDX, 430W
Built an off-plan RV9A with too much fuel and too much HP. Should drop dead any minute now.
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02-05-2020, 01:42 PM
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: Friendswood TX
Posts: 218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woxofswa
There is value in innovation and wisdom in proven results. Ask Boeing.
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Knowing what they know now, they might have decided to do a clean sheet design, rather than relying on the proven results of the 737.
__________________
Mark Andrew Tacquard
RV8 N189DK
RV10 in progress
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02-05-2020, 03:01 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 239
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LS 1 engine in a 3/4 size P51 replica
You can google the referenced aircraft and see the beautiful aircraft a gentleman built.
The aircraft, I believe, was built and flown by a Mark Hoyle. It had a number of hours on it but there was an in flight engine stoppage with aircraft making a safe off airport landing.
With a little research you might find some useful information of the aircraft builder/ pilot.
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