100LL Future and Engine Purchase Concerns

[rv6ejguy]

Greg, some of our friends in Oz have seen some serious valve seat problems operating on mogas in a fraction of the time you have. Apparently Swift put an additive in their UL fuels to mitigate this problem.

Any indication from leakdown and borescope tests that you are seeing these effects?

Very curious.

[airguy]

Originally Posted by rv6ejguy

Greg, some of our friends in Oz have seen some serious valve seat problems operating on mogas in a fraction of the time you have. Apparently Swift put an additive in their UL fuels to mitigate this problem.

Any indication from leakdown and borescope tests that you are seeing these effects?

Very curious.

Nothing on leakdown or valves yet - but I'm down for annual and SDS install right now and haven't gotten to that part yet, I'll let you know if I see anything in the cylinders or valves. I suspect that they are getting into detonation and running elevated temps, and causing the problems that way - it's very easy to do with compression higher than 8.5:1 and without full engine monitoring you won't even know it's happening till the damage is done. Last time I looked inside the cylinder was at 420 hours, I'll let you know what I find this time.

[breister]

Originally Posted by airguy

Looks like the program is in high-speed neutral, just as expected.

I'm so glad you said that.

Edit: My other answer was funnier but included a political reference which, intended to be possible to take as supporting either side, obviously would be taken as a condemnation of both sides. /end edit

As I read it I thought I heard the pig explaining to the other animals that all 100LL replacements are certainly equal, but some are more equal than others.

[airguy]

The goal of the PAFI program is literally impossible - trying to please everyone. You're never going to get there. They need to make a fuel that is a drop-in replacement for ALL engines in ALL applications, and at a price that is equal or lower than current fuel, and all that in as short a time as possible.

It was doomed to failure before the politicians even picked up the scent.

I believe that 100LL will eventually go away - but it will not be possible, EVER, to do so easily or painlessly. That's just part of life.

[TomAniello]

Shawn,

This is a more philosophical answer to your comment about having the 100LL dilemma taking the wind out of your sails. So, if you are looking for more technical response, skip to the next post.

Ten years ago I was just finishing my RV-8 tail kit while working for a major manufacturer of piston aircraft and business jets. I was in a meeting with the CEO of one of the largest distributors of avgas and jet fuel in the U.S., and left the meeting convinced that 100LL would either be gone, or cost $50 per gallon in the near future. It definitely took the wind out of my building sails, so I finished my empennage and boxed the pieces up for storage.

Fast forward 10 years to today, and 100LL is still available and at a reasonable cost. If I had kept building, I might be flying by now.

As I'm sure many people in their 50s do, I stopped to think about what is really important in life and what I want to accomplish with the fewer years I have ahead of me. Aviation has been a core element in my life since I was a child, but without an airplane of my own, I feel like I have not fully enjoyed or committed to my passion.

But what about 100LL in the future? I don't know, but I do know that in 20 years I definitely don't want to look back and regret giving up on my dream of building and flying my own airplane.

So, I just took delivery of the wing kit for my RV-8.

And, while I still choke on the thought of spending $30k on a new Lycoming, that purchase is still probably a decade off for me, and I will continue to build on faith. Faith that some type of powerplant and fuel will be available when I finish. It might be 100LL, it might be 94UL, it might be Jet-A. And I am watching the electric propulsion developments very closely.

We probably won't see the flux capacitor from Back to the Future in our lifetimes, but I do have faith that technology and market opportunity will come together to give us some way to keep flying these wonderful machines.

Build on!

Tom

[gmcjetpilot]

Go diesel? Look no politics allowed but read my mind. Get out and fly (and vote).

Adult folks living today will never see 100LL go away in their lifetime. Also lead additives will be available one way or the other.... Lead not only lubricates the valves at high temps, it adds octane needed for the engines we fly.

Before 100LL is banned if that ever happens is price. Authorities will make 100LL so expensive with taxes no one will be able to afford to buy it. Seriously the pollution of GA piston aircraft, small fleet and limited hours flown is peanuts. I know logic does not come into play with these authoritarian dreams the "Gov" comes up with.... for our own good....

[David Z]

I'm at a similar stage and timeline in my RV8 build as Tom (two posts up). There's been a lot of talk the last 10 years about small turbines. Several attempts, some more successful than others, and none have made it to market..yet! I've got my fingers cross that there will be a decent option available in 10 years for a small turbine engine for the RV series. I do fear the cost as turbines mean big dollars, and I don't have 100 grand to spend on an engine.

The 100LL problem affects a lot more than just us. The flight schools need something for their 152s, and other training aircraft. Lots of charter companies with big Cessna and Piper twins; Navajos, 421s and the like all burning 100LL and aren't going away.

I am confident that whatever replaces 100LL will not be much different in price and will remain readily available. The world-wide consumption of leaded gasoline is miniscule compared to what it was when lead was in car gas. There isn't the same environmental pressure and concern due to the much lower volume. I suspect the actual amount of lead in 100LL is already quite a bit lower than it was 20 or 30 years ago. Decreasing the quantity to the minimum allowable specification. This is just a suspicion, and have nothing to back this up.

[pa38112]

I remember being in 4th grade and being told the world was running out of gas and that there would not be any cars when I grow up...
Don't worry about it, buy a 100LL engine and enjoy it for as long as you want...

[rongawer]

I've been running 91AKI pump gas here in Wackinfornia...yup, straight from the local Quick Stop, meaning 10% ethanol.

I have a tank in my truck bed that I fill at the gas pump, and fill my airplane from my truck bed tank, which I've done about every two to three days since the summer of 2018, which is something like 370 hours so far.

My UL350iS (8.7:1) cylinders are clean, compressions are great and the engine runs like a champ. I've never had any issues with vapor locking, detonation or ethanol related issues.

Fuel disclosure: I have run 100LL on occasion, generally when I'm traveling XC and can't get MOGAS and use Decalin when doing so.

[breister]

Originally Posted by airguy

The goal of the PAFI program is literally impossible - trying to please everyone. You're never going to get there. They need to make a fuel that is a drop-in replacement for ALL engines in ALL applications, and at a price that is equal or lower than current fuel, and all that in as short a time as possible.

It was doomed to failure before the politicians even picked up the scent.

I believe that 100LL will eventually go away - but it will not be possible, EVER, to do so easily or painlessly. That's just part of life.

Actually, I suspect Swift Fuel filled the bill apart from potentially being a bit pricier (which they could change by lowering the ridonkulous AvGas taxes).

Even more interesting in the near future would be to hook large solar farms (daylight only) to the Navy process for creating fuel. As the price of non-dispatchable solar energy keeps going down, at some point it will become cheaper to use this process than anything pumped from the ground. Note that although their primary purpose was to create a jet fuel / diesel alternative, the same process can create "lighter fuels" as well. They might have to modify the process a bit to allow "suspending" it at night (to avoid having to buy more expensive power either stored or from other sources), but it seems feasible.