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  #41  
Old 01-28-2020, 09:49 AM
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Pilot135pd Pilot135pd is offline
 
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Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
There is.
There is a whole bunch of different operating limitations (I only listed one of them).

Another one is - An experimental aircraft builder certificated as a repairman for this aircraft
under § 65.104, or an appropriately rated FAA-certificated mechanic, may
perform the condition inspection required by these operating limitations.


It would be a good idea for anyone that owns / flys an E-AB aircraft to read through and become familiar with the operating limitations for their aircraft (they are not all the same depending on the calendar date they were issued). Some of them may surprise you.
Yes I know the Operating Limitations on my aircraft, I had to explain them to my inept North Dallas FSDO inspectors and their supervisor for almost a year since they didn't know how to deal with them.

When you mentioned that paragraph was it I didn't think about the rest of the Ops Limits mentioning anything, my fault there.
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  #42  
Old 01-28-2020, 09:53 AM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
There is.
There is a whole bunch of different operating limitations (I only listed one of them).

Another one is - An experimental aircraft builder certificated as a repairman for this aircraft
under § 65.104, or an appropriately rated FAA-certificated mechanic, may
perform the condition inspection required by these operating limitations.


It would be a good idea for anyone that owns / flys an E-AB aircraft to read through and become familiar with the operating limitations for their aircraft (they are not all the same depending on the calendar date they were issued). Some of them may surprise you.
Maybe this will help, maybe not.

The reason that E-AB's can do this, with the limited FAR's that you are seeking is because when a Type Certified airplane is signed off by an IA, S/He is stating that the aircraft complies with the Type Certificate plus any 337's and all AD's are complied with.

With E-AB's there is no TC to comply with and AD's don't apply. Thus the builder, if they have the Repairman's Certificate and A&P's are authorized to certify via logbook entry that the aircraft is in "Condition for Safe Flight" each year.

As mentioned in multiple posts, each E-AB aircraft comes with a unique set of Operating Limitations which must remain in the aircraft. The Operating Limitations spell out exactly what can and cannot be done to and with the aircraft. That is why Scott is saying to get familiar with the Operating Limitations for your aircraft.

This is also the reason that the owner, non-builder, of an E-AB can do all the maintenance and sign the logbook for things like an engine overhaul, prop swap, panel replacement, major repair or alteration, you name it. Then, at the end of the 12th month since the last condition inspection (or issuance of the Airworthiness Certificate), either the holder of the Repairman's Certificate or an A&P inspects the plane to make sure it is "in condition for safe flight".
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Last edited by N941WR : 01-28-2020 at 10:12 AM. Reason: Corrected the wording for the timing of the inspection
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  #43  
Old 01-28-2020, 10:00 AM
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Pilot135pd Pilot135pd is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR View Post
Maybe this will help, maybe not.

The reason that E-AB's can do this, with the limited FAR's that you are seeking is because when a Type Certified airplane is signed off by an IA, S/He is stating that the aircraft complies with the Type Certificate plus any 337's and all AD's are complied with.

With E-AB's there is no TC to comply with and AD's don't apply. Thus the builder, if they have the Repairman's Certificate and A&P's are authorized to certify via logbook entry that the aircraft is in "Condition for Safe Flight" each year.

As mentioned in multiple posts, each E-AB aircraft comes with a unique set of Operating Limitations which must remain in the aircraft. The Operating Limitations spell out exactly what can and cannot be done to and with the aircraft. That is why Scott is saying to get familiar with the Operating Limitations for your aircraft.

This is also the reason that the owner, non-builder, of an E-AB can do all the maintenance and sign the logbook for things like an engine overhaul, prop swap, panel replacement, major repair or alteration, you name it. Then at the end of the 12 calendar year, either the holder of the Repairman's Certificate or an A&P inspects the plane to make sure it is "in condition for safe flight".
Sounds like a good summary, thanks.
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  #44  
Old 01-28-2020, 10:02 AM
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dpansier dpansier is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aryana View Post
Edited to include the quote that was missed when I posted. Thanks for the catch!



In response to the quote above, for certified aircraft, it is quite useful at times to make that entry I posted during an annual or 100 hour inspection and provide a discrepancy list of unairworthy items to an owner.

For an annual, this allows the IA to sign the books and move on while any A&P can address the items in the discrepancy list and everything is then good to go.

I've seen it come in handy in another rare instance where it really helps to keep cheap owners honest. I've run into certified aircraft owners that expect to pay a flat fee for an annual/100 hour inspection and don't want to pay extra for any required repairs. This entry and discrepancy list clearly separates the inspection from repairs. The discrepancy list becomes another bill if they want those items addressed. Paying for the annual/100 hour inspection means just that...the inspection. It's not an all you can eat buffet for your A&P or IA to do everything your plane needs to get back in the air.

Stay EXPERIMENTAL my friends! The certified world sucks. This Christen Eagle II (ADSB exempt ) is my antidote to the constant BS of illogical certified aircraft maintenance restrictions.







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  #45  
Old 01-28-2020, 10:10 AM
Aryana Aryana is offline
 
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Love it Don!!
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  #46  
Old 01-28-2020, 10:15 AM
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Pilot135pd Pilot135pd is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpansier View Post
Amen Don !!!!!
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  #47  
Old 01-28-2020, 10:25 AM
David Paule David Paule is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR View Post
....when a Type Certified airplane is signed off by an IA, S/He is stating that the aircraft complies with the Type Certificate plus any 337's and all AD's are complied with....
I believe that this is incorrect. The annual inspection of a Type Certified airplane is not a conformity inspection, but an inspection to determine if the airplane is safe to fly. A conformity inspection would be considerably more rigorous and might even include searching for records indicating that the spar caps, for example, met the Type Certified design as approved by the FAA.

Dave
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  #48  
Old 01-28-2020, 12:16 PM
RV10Pilot RV10Pilot is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
No person may operate this aircraft unless within the preceding 12
calendar months it has had a condition inspection performed per
the scope and detail of part 43, appendix D, manufacturer or other
FAA-approved programs, and was found to be in a condition for safe
operation. The inspections must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance
records showing the following, or a similarly worded, statement: ?I certify
that this aircraft has been inspected on [insert date] per the [insert either:
scope and detail of part 43, appendix D; or manufacturer?s inspection
procedures
] and was found to be in a condition for safe operation.? The
entry will include the aircraft?s total time-in-service (cycles if appropriate),
and the name, signature, certificate number, and type of certificate held
by the person performing the inspection.


There is no path to allow someone other than the person that did the actual inspection, to sign off the inspection as completed. That doesn't mean that they have to be the one who corrects any discrepancies found that prevent the inspector from making the log book entry, but they have to be the one that determines they were corrected properly.
Does that mean that since I am the manufacture (not Van's) I get to specify the inspection procedure?
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  #49  
Old 01-28-2020, 12:31 PM
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RV6_flyer RV6_flyer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV10Pilot View Post
Does that mean that since I am the manufacture (not Van's) I get to specify the inspection procedure?
Your Operating Limitations spells out what you must do.
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  #50  
Old 01-28-2020, 12:41 PM
Aryana Aryana is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
There is no path to allow someone other than the person that did the actual inspection, to sign off the inspection as completed. That doesn't mean that they have to be the one who corrects any discrepancies found that prevent the inspector from making the log book entry, but they have to be the one that determines they were corrected properly.
This is one area where certified aircraft have more flexibility than EAB, wherein an annual inspection is signed off with discrepancies and they are corrected later by other than said inspector (but must be a rated mechanic).

That makes sense if you think about it. Without a type certificate to reference, it's a good thing to have the person who did the condition inspection on an EAB follow through to ensure the discrepancies are corrected properly. That's not as crucial on a type certificated aircraft since there is approved data that the rated mechanic can reference to remedy the discrepancies.

I guess your answer to the OP on the EAB example put forth would be that the airworthiness deficiencies pointed out by the A&P doing the inspection must be remedied by the same A&P who did the initial condition inspection?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot135pd View Post
All maintenance on my Experimental plane can be done by me. I'm not an A&P and don't have a Repairman certificate of any kind.

In Experimental airplanes the Condition Inspection must be done by at least an A&P.


Here's were we got stuck. Say an A&P does my Condition Inspection and finds some deficiencies. Can he sign the logbook as Unairworthy and give me a squawk list like a Standard airplane or does he have to repair anything and sign it as Airworthy?

If he can sign it as Unairworthy and give me a squawk list, can I fix the squawks and return it to service or does it have to be another A&P?

Please include FARs with your replies so I can research it further and learn from you. Thanks !


(*** In MY specific case it would most likely get fixed by another A&P because depending on what it is I probably don't have the expertise, but I'm asking in general terms. ***)

Last edited by Aryana : 01-28-2020 at 12:47 PM.
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