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  #101  
Old 11-17-2019, 07:43 AM
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rocketbob rocketbob is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keitht View Post
Looking at the link for the alternator used by Bob it seems pretty clear that the B&C alternator is from the Denso stable - just have to find the particular model number for the equivelent part. Now have to also track down the regulator and see if there is an equivelent version of the regulator with overvoltage protection. Objective here is to find alternative sources for alternators and regulators for field replacement/repairs.
KT
Buy the Amazon alternator, add Perihelion or other OVP protection device, done. No need to overthink this.
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  #102  
Old 11-17-2019, 07:47 AM
BillL BillL is offline
 
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Default Hard Facts

Quote:
Originally Posted by keitht View Post
Looking at the link for the alternator used by Bob it seems pretty clear that the B&C alternator is from the Denso stable - just have to find the particular model number for the equivelent part. Now have to also track down the regulator and see if there is an equivelent version of the regulator with overvoltage protection. Objective here is to find alternative sources for alternators and regulators for field replacement/repairs.
KT
Someone is just going to have to take the B&C apart to know what is in it. And . . that will not track future production changes.

Looking at the outside and getting the lester number does not define the guts. The bearings can be different, the items like brush holders, and connector sockets can also be special. The "fit" is common, but not the internal wire connections. I have attempted to do this externally for the commercial equal of the PP, and have yet to find one. The internals match the fit, but not the precise function.

Regarding the backup, what is the likely failure mode? Wear parts, electronics, electrical, bearings? Carry them all? I would not dare expect to be able to properly replace parts on the ramp with a handful of tools. All that would be more weight than a spare alternator.

Why not just run the B&C for 500 hrs, then check the bearings, brushes every 100 hrs? Then replace it at 1000 hrs (or XXXXhrs). A PP 60A is 6.5 lbs. It seems there are many better options to improve the odds than carrying parts. Having the B&C is a really good baseline, and they will rebuild it, right?

Carefully define your expectations and failure scenarios , share if you will, and look at what situation/problem is being solved. Problem, action, result.

This may sound negative, but I have stepped though each scenario and been doing the homework on the PP 60A, and asked myself all the same questions. My friends PP has 450 hrs, Joes failed at 510, but it was a bridge, and repaired. It is a good design. Not without some production issues in the past. Warranty is a 1000 hrs.

We could write a book on this but who would read it?
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RV-7
Lord Kelvin:
“I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about,
and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you
cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge
is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind.”
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  #103  
Old 11-17-2019, 07:51 AM
BillL BillL is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketbob View Post
Buy the Amazon alternator, add Perihelion or other OVP protection device, done. No need to overthink this.
Guilty .
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Bill

RV-7
Lord Kelvin:
“I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about,
and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you
cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge
is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind.”
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  #104  
Old 11-17-2019, 12:26 PM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keitht View Post
Looking at the link for the alternator used by Bob it seems pretty clear that the B&C alternator is from the Denso stable - just have to find the particular model number for the equivalent part. Now have to also track down the regulator and see if there is an equivelent version of the regulator with overvoltage protection. Objective here is to find alternative sources for alternators and regulators for field replacement/repairs.
KT
B&C's claim to fame with their (ND based) alternators (besides high price $550 for alt + regulator) are two fold: 1) They are externally regulated with a "crow bar"; 2) They are reported to be "blue printed", hand fitted, balanced, blessed by tibetan monks....(OK made the last part up). How they modify it off the shelf parts verses in-house made parts maybe, who knows.

I do know if your exhaust is 1 inch away and your engine/prop shakes like a wet dog getting out of a bath, your alternator will fail earlier.

People have had B&C parts fail, like the VR. The external regulator I looked at 10 years ago was hobby quality (good but something you can make if you own a solder iron). It was in a hobby case, hand soldered discreet components with a TO-3 transistor externally mounted. It may have changed. The circuitry of a voltage regulator is simple, and to incorporate an OV crow bar in the VR is also simple. The crow bar is a well known design as old as the hills and a very simple circuit. Anyone with a basic understanding of electronics can figure it out. There are more advanced external VR's in marine and commercial vehicle industry that do all kinds of cool tricks, including OV and changeable voltage schedules.
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Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 11-21-2019 at 12:28 PM.
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  #105  
Old 11-17-2019, 02:28 PM
keitht keitht is offline
 
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Default Designing for maintainability

Part of my strategy for figuring out what I have actually purchased with the B&C alternators and regulators, besides being curious about the actual quality of the parts is to be able to figure out a ?what if? strategy for dealing with component failures when on a long cross country. Having the capability to order parts through a local NAPA store is a big plus (especially when you know the part number and know it is going to work) and doing the work to figure out what to order ahead of time adds to peace of mind. A secondary issue is figuring out what value is added by buying from B&C for the substantial differential in cost compared to buying new OEM from a Denso supply house. I would hope that B&C have the capability to do a quality professional engineering job rather than just adding torqueseal and their own label to second sourced components. I dont see the evidence for making any positive judgement in that area. I would be inclined to believe that new OEM parts would have lower failure rates and be better value than rebuilt second sourced parts (even if they have been blessed by religious monks).
KT
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  #106  
Old 11-18-2019, 06:29 PM
keitht keitht is offline
 
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Default B&C Regulator

After reading the post from GMCjet pilot and being curious about the quality of the construction of the regulator and realizing it was in a Radio Shack hobby diecast box I decided to cast caution to the wind and take the cover off to inspect the hidden stuff. The screws securing the cover were cemented in place so they needed the heads drilled out to remove the lid. The circuit board is attached to the lid so it came apart without damage once the screw heads were removed. The circuit board is double sided with plated through holes. All components are hand soldered and typical commercial components for circa 1990?s designed electronics. Some parts ( capacitors and plastic case transistors) had strands of rubber cement like material spread across them to provide some level of protection against vibration. There were areas where solder flux had not been cleaned off after the soldering operation and no areas where conformal coating had been applied. No quite what I was expecting for aircraft quality stuff. The circuit board silk screening had revision letter G with a date of 1996. Seemed to fit with my recollection of 1990 style hand soldered boards. Will probably just clean off the residue of solder flux apply some conformal coat material and more vibration damping in the appropriate areas, reassemble and use until it fails and then go to plan B.
KT
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  #107  
Old 11-18-2019, 06:46 PM
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emsvitil emsvitil is online now
 
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Take a picture or map out the circuit so we can build our own.................
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  #108  
Old 11-18-2019, 07:28 PM
keitht keitht is offline
 
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Default B&C Regulator Reverse Engineering

Ed,
I don?t think that taking and posting pictures and doing any published reverse engineering on the B&C regulator is a good or ethical idea. The required regulator circuit is published in many places on the web. The implementation for an OVP circuit is likewise also available. B&C may be overpriced with quality that has considerable room for improvement. Clearly it is not up to TSO/PMA standards but they did the design,development and manufacturing and are providing a warranty (which I have now invalidated) and customer support. I took this unit apart to satisfy my own peace of mind for my safety and the passengers that fly with me. I may trace out the circuit and review the component rating to determine the derating margins but that would be the extent of any engineering I would do. Knowing what I know now I would look further into the Perihelion unit which, by the way is approved by the UK Light Airplane Association. The LAA approval process is apparently much closer to TSO/PMA approval so I have been told.
KT
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  #109  
Old 11-20-2019, 12:09 PM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keitht View Post
Ed,
I don’t think that taking and posting pictures and doing any published reverse engineering on the B&C regulator is a good or ethical idea. The required regulator circuit is published in many places on the web. The implementation for an OVP circuit is likewise also available. B&C may be overpriced with quality that has considerable room for improvement. Clearly it is not up to TSO/PMA standards but they did the design,development and manufacturing and are providing a warranty (which I have now invalidated) and customer support. I took this unit apart to satisfy my own peace of mind for my safety and the passengers that fly with me. I may trace out the circuit and review the component rating to determine the derating margins but that would be the extent of any engineering I would do. Knowing what I know now I would look further into the Perihelion unit which, by the way is approved by the UK Light Airplane Association. The LAA approval process is apparently much closer to TSO/PMA approval so I have been told.
KT
This design is not "rocket surgery or brain science" (joke). Google voltage regulator circuit... B&C copied this circuit. To copy this circuit is like copying the wheel of electronics. TSO/PMA is not a patent or copy-write. People can copy any TSO/PMA but have to go through the regulatory hoops. You could not get a patent on this, too basic.

Save yourself the trouble, buy a modern VR. Google: "Transpo V1200 voltage regulator", for about $60 (B&C = $180).



V1200 - Voltage Regulator, 12 Volt, B-Circuit, 14.2 Volt Set Point, For Universal Applications

Notes:
For version with Ford style narrow blade terminals to fit OE Ford regulator plug use V1200F.
For version with under voltage warning light us V1300.
For 24 volt version use V2400.
Terminal Identification: L-B+-STATOR-FLD-GND Terminals

Features:
Voyager Series Regulator
Adjustable voltage (13.0-16.0V)
Precise digital* regulation
Short-circuit protected
High current capability
Over voltage protection

Ignition or light circuit activated with high side regulation (B-circuit)
Protected against loss of ground and under voltage
LED's for easy troubleshooting
Fault detection indicators

Item Weight 9.6 ounces
Package Dimensions 4.8 x 3.6 x 1.8 inches


* Not sure what is "digital". Voltage Regulation is basic analog feedback. I don't see a need for digital.
They my be using the term digital for PWM (pulse width modulation) or have a chip in it for fault logic?
Regardless of "digital" hype this VR does more than the B&C for 1/3rd the price.

https://store.alternatorparts.com/v1...lications.aspx

https://www.amazon.com/NEW-Adjustabl.../dp/B00OBTI5Q2
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Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 11-20-2019 at 12:22 PM.
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  #110  
Old 11-21-2019, 12:27 AM
keitht keitht is offline
 
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In reply to the previous post.
Having been in the Aerospace electronics design business in a previous life and seen a lot of equipment into service on large commercial aircraft and a range of military and commercial projects I have an opinion about the ease of building and developing your own regulator. Understating the significance of doing robust, complete design, development, production engineering, testing and qualification of a product being brought to market where performance and reliability in a harsh environment is required is often trivialized by those without the scars from having done it. The devil as always is in the details. A seeming trivial example is changing solder composition and the flux and degreasing process to meet modern environmental standards. Even with the best circuit design , board layout, pick and place machines and component selections reliability will be poor if the new processes are incompatible or not fully tested. There really is a lot more than just throwing a few parts together. Using a regulator that is untested in the application, requires development testing and possible modification will quickly suck up the $100 difference in cost (even you only charge your time at $5 per hour) unless the plan is to amortize over a number of units or you are doing it for the? learning? experience.
B&C has a good reputation with the alternators and regulators that they produce even if the products were developed many years ago. Are they likely to be as reliable as modern surface mount machine assembled boards with IR reflow soldering - almost certainly not. But until a suitable candidate is identified, evaluated, examined and tested to qualification levels, the B&C offering may be the best overall solution if the objective is to finish and fly your airplane project.
KT
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