VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > Main > RV General Discussion/News
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 11-19-2019, 09:27 AM
McStevens McStevens is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Edmonds, WA
Posts: 105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotyoung View Post
With that approach, you will probably never be involved in a claim with a coverage question. And if you are, you will have the documentation to provide the insurance company.
Good advice. But don't be surprised when your insurance company denies a claim obviously covered under your policy, it's what they do unfortunately.

I'd suggest you should get a copy of the policy document to read and (attempt) to fully understand prior to purchasing. Really if you can afford it you should go through it with a coverage attorney so they can help you interpret the intentionally convoluted policy phrasing.
  #22  
Old 11-19-2019, 09:39 AM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sunman, IN
Posts: 2,189
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by McStevens View Post
Good advice. But don't be surprised when your insurance company denies a claim obviously covered under your policy, it's what they do unfortunately.

I'd suggest you should get a copy of the policy document to read and (attempt) to fully understand prior to purchasing. Really if you can afford it you should go through it with a coverage attorney so they can help you interpret the intentionally convoluted policy phrasing.

Yep, you get it.

...and read EVERY sentence. as I posted earlier, the cost of one sentence was the price of a C-172RG...
__________________
Bob
Aerospace Engineer '88

RV-10
Structure - 90% Done
Cabin Top - Aaarrghhh...
EFII System 32 - Done
297 HP Barrett Hung
ShowPlanes Cowl with Skybolts Fitted - Beautiful
Wiring...

Dues+ Paid 2019,...Thanks DR+
  #23  
Old 11-19-2019, 10:23 AM
upperdeck upperdeck is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Menomonee Falls, WI
Posts: 145
Default

Can you expand? What one sentence allowed them to deny a claim?
  #24  
Old 11-19-2019, 10:58 AM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sunman, IN
Posts: 2,189
Default phrase

In this case it was a catastrophic engine failure. You would think that is one of the reason WHY you carry insurance but no...there was one sentence in legalese, that was buried deep in the policy, that basically said, "catastrophic engine failures are not covered". Of course, in legalese, it doesn't come right out and say that. Unfortunately for us, it was in there, and it was a simple issue for the insurance company to say, "too bad, so sad, bye, bye".

So, we ate a $57,000 aircraft. We were able to part some of it for around $10k but it was pretty much totaled.

You might think it's an isolated event but my parent's house burned due to a ford expedition's faulty pressure switch. Remember the lawsuits? That's beside the point though, it was like pulling teeth to get paid. In fact, it took a lawyer to get things moving. Apparently, the insurance company didn't want to pay out the $160k but the lawyer said the lawsuit that he would file was going to cost them substantially more...

Point is, the insurance company is in business to make money. Claims cost money...

Read every line of your policy and make darn sure you understand what is covered and what is not...and as previously posted, if you do not understand something in the policy, ask questions or enlist an attorney to translate the legalese...
__________________
Bob
Aerospace Engineer '88

RV-10
Structure - 90% Done
Cabin Top - Aaarrghhh...
EFII System 32 - Done
297 HP Barrett Hung
ShowPlanes Cowl with Skybolts Fitted - Beautiful
Wiring...

Dues+ Paid 2019,...Thanks DR+
  #25  
Old 11-19-2019, 11:47 AM
RV7A Flyer's Avatar
RV7A Flyer RV7A Flyer is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: US
Posts: 2,251
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketman1988 View Post
there was one sentence in legalese, that was buried deep in the policy, that basically said, "catastrophic engine failures are not covered". Of course, in legalese, it doesn't come right out and say that.
Words matter. What *exactly* did it say?

And what was the cause of said "catastrophic engine failure"? Manufacturing defect? Maintenance error? Construction flaw? Poor care and feeding? Could easily be a factor in their decision, depending on what the contract said.

More details, please. Help us all understand what to look for, precisely, in an insurance agreement which might be problematic.
__________________
2019 Dues paid!
  #26  
Old 11-19-2019, 11:59 AM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 5,298
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketman1988 View Post

For example, a hypothetical pilot has 20,000+ hours and hasn't kept a logbook in years. All currency requirements are valid. This pilot lists 10 hours of RV-10 time on his application. An accident occurs and a claim is filed. The insurance company denies the claim based on the inability to prove the 10 hours, yet the pilot is not required to document those hours...
I'm not sure I agree with that. You get a quote for insurance on your 10 and the ins co requires 10 hours of flight time to get that insurance. You then sign an agreement stating that you meet the requirements. It doesn't seem out of line for the ins co to ask you to prove it at some time (not a logbook entry per se; I am sure an affidavit from the CFI or other pilot would be adequate), regardless of the FAA requirements. You knew it was a requirement and should have known it may need to be validated some day. No different with your taxes. You have no obligation to document most of your enties, but if you can't prove them when the tax man comes calling to verify, you lose. That is pretty standard when you sign a document attesting to facts not documented.

I suspect the companies are not overly strict on the form of proof, as any logbook entry, except one signed by a CFI, is no more a reliable statement of fact than an affidavit signed by the pilot along with a rental receipt. If they are looking for prook of things like BFRs or check outs, it seems reasonable to request a logbook, as that is the standard way of a CFI signing off on that activity. Though I suspect any paper that states the fact, along with the CFI signature, would be adequate.

Larry
__________________
N64LR - RV-6A / IO-320, Flying as of 8/2015
N11LR - RV-10, Flying as of 12/2019

Last edited by lr172 : 11-19-2019 at 12:08 PM.
  #27  
Old 11-19-2019, 12:20 PM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sunman, IN
Posts: 2,189
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer View Post
Words matter. What *exactly* did it say?

And what was the cause of said "catastrophic engine failure"? Manufacturing defect? Maintenance error? Construction flaw? Poor care and feeding? Could easily be a factor in their decision, depending on what the contract said.

More details, please. Help us all understand what to look for, precisely, in an insurance agreement which might be problematic.

Yes, words DO matter...however, this issue occurred around 2007 and I do not have the *exact* verbiage they used on hand.

I can tell you that the policy was a Flight School policy, insuring two C-172s, a C-172RG, and a C-421. The aircraft were properly maintained and "fed"...as they have to be for a flight school operation.

The "said cause" of the failure was a plug on the front case of the engine. The hole is there for manufacturing reasons, then plugged. That plug is never meant to be removed but for some reason (unknown) it failed. That led to total oil loss and catastrophic failure. In fact, it was a textbook failure with oil spraying all over the windshield making it impossible to see. The 110 hour PP landed the dead stick aircraft in a logging clearcut area, destroying the aircraft, but he and his passenger walked away with minor bruises.

The FAA requested the engine for examination...and that was the last we heard about it.

Nothing else really matters, though, except that it was excluded in the policy...and we did not catch it.

So, again, make darn sure you know what is in your policy, and ask questions if you don't understand something...
__________________
Bob
Aerospace Engineer '88

RV-10
Structure - 90% Done
Cabin Top - Aaarrghhh...
EFII System 32 - Done
297 HP Barrett Hung
ShowPlanes Cowl with Skybolts Fitted - Beautiful
Wiring...

Dues+ Paid 2019,...Thanks DR+
  #28  
Old 11-19-2019, 12:58 PM
Sue Sue is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Ok
Posts: 94
Default Insurance

Bottom line.....
From experience, you got insurance because
There was a chance that you were going to have
A incident, claim, etc. your insurance provider
Bet against you having a claim that would exceed
Your premiums for period of time.
There job to share holders is to return a profit.
Denying the claim or a portion there of is usually
The first response. After the FLD ( first letter of denial)
Next call (calls?) is to a attorney.
Then 99% of time your claim can move forward.
Being in court is the LAST thing a insurance company
Wants.
  #29  
Old 11-19-2019, 01:04 PM
RV7A Flyer's Avatar
RV7A Flyer RV7A Flyer is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: US
Posts: 2,251
Default

Well, without the actual words, this is merely a rumor. Most policies, as I understand it, exclude engine breakdown or failure. Mine specifically says

Quote:
This policy does not apply:...
(f) Under Coverages F, G and H, to physical damage
(ii) caused by and confined to:
(1) wear and tear,
(2) deterioration, or
(3) mechanical or electrical breakdown, failure
or malfunction.
Note the "confined to" part. If the engine fails, they won't pay for that. If the engine fails and the plane gets damaged in any subsequent emergency landing, the damage is paid for.

So yes, you have to read your whole policy and understand it, obviously. I was hoping you could provide more than an anecdotal story with the actual wording that people here should be on the lookout for in their own policies.
__________________
2019 Dues paid!
  #30  
Old 11-19-2019, 01:08 PM
RV7A Flyer's Avatar
RV7A Flyer RV7A Flyer is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: US
Posts: 2,251
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
Denying the claim or a portion there of is usually
The first response. After the FLD ( first letter of denial)
Next call (calls?) is to a attorney.
Then 99% of time your claim can move forward.
Being in court is the LAST thing a insurance company
Wants.
This is not true, and a blatant smearing of the entire industry. In my dealings with aviation insurance companies, both as a board member for a large flight club, a renter, and an owner, and having been through a handful of claims, including my own, in all of those roles, ranging from relatively minor damage to complete aircraft loss, they have *never* behaved that way. Some were the fault of the pilot, some the fault of a mechanic, some the fault of someone else entirely, some an inherent design flaw.

Each time, the people I/we dealt with were professional, courteous, made decisions based on facts, and paid the claim promptly and without any hassle.

As they've all told me or others involved..."this is what insurance is for."
__________________
2019 Dues paid!
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:29 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.