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11-18-2019, 05:52 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 703
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It seems to me that 2 sheets of paper with your endorsements showing currency, flight review and hours written on one of them somewhere could be a logbook. I do not think there is anything requiring your log to be bound in shiny covering and going back to day one of your flying.
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RV 7
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11-18-2019, 05:52 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketman1988
Yes that all makes sense...however...the point of my question is how is the validity of the application checked when a logbook is NOT required except pertaining to ratings sought.
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Strictly speaking, you also need to keep records of Flight Reviews, 3 landings/takeoffs every 90 days (if you carry passengers), Instrument time or IPCs (if you fly under IFR), etc.
But insurance is, as Katie said, a contract. If you claim something factual (hours, for example) you had better be prepared to back it up somehow, regardless of what the FAA says are its requirements.
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11-18-2019, 06:06 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Edmonds, WA
Posts: 105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner
If you claim something factual (hours, for example) you had better be prepared to back it up somehow, regardless of what the FAA says are its requirements.
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Or maybe since it's factual the onus is on them to prove you're lying?
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11-18-2019, 06:49 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: 52F
Posts: 187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner
Strictly speaking, you also need to keep records of Flight Reviews, 3 landings/takeoffs every 90 days (if you carry passengers), Instrument time or IPCs (if you fly under IFR), etc.
But insurance is, as Katie said, a contract. If you claim something factual (hours, for example) you had better be prepared to back it up somehow, regardless of what the FAA says are its requirements.
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In addition to the above, I always log all my time because:
A: I want to
B: My flight experience may get me an insurance decrease on a future application.
C: If I ever need to talk to an adjuster, I would like that conversation to go smoothly.
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46 Luscombe 8a Rag Wing, Armstrong starter
RV-6, IO-320, Catto, G3X Panel (Thanks Walt!)
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11-18-2019, 07:01 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sunman, IN
Posts: 2,189
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Exactly
The way it looks is that the insurance company is judge, jury, and executioner.
For example, a hypothetical pilot has 20,000+ hours and hasn't kept a logbook in years. All currency requirements are valid. This pilot lists 10 hours of RV-10 time on his application. An accident occurs and a claim is filed. The insurance company denies the claim based on the inability to prove the 10 hours, yet the pilot is not required to document those hours...
Bob T said, "...But insurance is, as Katie said, a contract. If you claim something factual (hours, for example) you had better be prepared to back it up somehow, regardless of what the FAA says are its requirements..."
So how do we do that? Logbooks are really not valid proof because there are plenty of folks that still log Parker P51 time, so how is that different than just claiming you have the time?
__________________
Bob
Aerospace Engineer '88
RV-10
Structure - 90% Done
Cabin Top - Aaarrghhh...
EFII System 32 - Done
297 HP Barrett Hung
ShowPlanes Cowl with Skybolts Fitted - Beautiful
Wiring...
Dues+ Paid 2019,...Thanks DR+
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11-18-2019, 07:08 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Clearwater, FL KCLW
Posts: 1,281
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The issue of whether the FAA requires you to log your time is irrelevant to the insurance discussion. If you choose to enter into a contract with an insurer, and the contract requires some semblance of proof of your time, then a logbook seems the easiest way to satisfy the requirement. Perhaps fuel receipts and other such things could help as well, but wouldn't it just be easier to log your time? Sure you don't HAVE to, but you don't HAVE to buy insurance, either. Plus, if you use an EFB like foreflight with gps, it will log your flights automatically. I basically just hit "approve" after each flight and it is added to my logbook. Plus this has the advantage of being backed up by a complete track log, much much harder to falsify.
Chris
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Chris Johnson
RV-9A - Done(ish) 4/5/16! Flying 4/7/16
Last edited by YellowJacket RV9 : 11-18-2019 at 07:11 PM.
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11-19-2019, 07:51 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketman1988
For example, a hypothetical pilot has 20,000+ hours and hasn't kept a logbook in years. All currency requirements are valid. This pilot lists 10 hours of RV-10 time on his application. An accident occurs and a claim is filed.
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Prove it. This doesn't have to be proved in the sense that you need witnesses and fuel receipts and... and... It just needs to be proved to the satisfaction of the Insurance Company.
Quote:
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The insurance company denies the claim based on the inability to prove the 10 hours, yet the pilot is not required to document those hours...
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The FAA doesn't require the pilot to maintain a personal log to document the hours. But the Insurance Company needs documentation of the hours. An easy way is to document them in the way most people document them, in a logbook. Also, don't the hours in the airplane itself need to be logged? That log could be copied and submitted as proof, too.
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Rob Prior
1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
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11-19-2019, 07:58 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: 52F
Posts: 187
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I know a guy (not me). Who totaled his airplane. He had insurance. When the adjuster got to work, he requested log book pages with the owners required CFI checkout. He kept a computer logbook and told the adjuster that his logged time was not required by the FAA.
Payout was on hold until the adjuster was done. IE proof of the needed time in type / CFI checkout.
CFI eventually drafted an email to the adjuster.
Insurance payed out.
When I give or get a new checkout / completion of rating / flight review, I draft a word document and type out what we did. Time of training. We both sign and each get a copy. Save for later if we "need it".
__________________
46 Luscombe 8a Rag Wing, Armstrong starter
RV-6, IO-320, Catto, G3X Panel (Thanks Walt!)
Last edited by flyinhood : 11-19-2019 at 08:14 AM.
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11-19-2019, 08:20 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 207
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Did You Know insurance companies use your application as a contract for the policy
I don't want to start any arguments here but I think there a couple of things that need to be said about insurance and logbooks. First, pilots are required to log certain flights! Doesn't matter if you will never seek another rating or not. Currency to carry passengers, IFR currency, flight review, must be logged. Granted it doesn't have to be in a black bound book with "Logbook" printed in fancy letters on the front. But it has to be in some form of permanent record that can be produced if the FAA requests it. Also if you are flying a tail wheel, high performance, or other specialized aircraft that requires an endorsement before you solo it, you need to have proof of that endorsement. That is not an on going requirement, but you need to prove you have it.
Second, an insurance company has to have some basis for deciding (1) if they want to insure a pilot and aircraft, (2) under what conditions, and (3) what they will charge for the insurance policy. The way that is done is the broker ask a bunch of questions when getting the information for a quote, and then after the risk is bound, they send an application where the insured confirms that information and signs it to verify it is correct.
Also there is no such thing as an "all loss" policy. No policy covers everything. And if the insured falsifies the information that the policy is based upon, the insurance company has every right, and I can argue a duty (to its honest policyholders) to deny the claim.
The best way to handle your aircraft insurance is to find a good broker who specializes in aviation insurance. Then tell that broker everything about how you operate the aircraft. Who flies it. What you use it for. Where you fly it. Do you fly it in airshows, waivered airspace. It is like going to the doctor for a physical. You have to take off your clothes so he can conduct a good physical. Well you need to do an aviation use undressing so that your broker will know all the facts about how and what you use the airplane for. Then with complete knowledge your broker can get quotes from all the companies that insure your airplane and your use, and provide the quotes to you with a recommendation on which one is best. With that approach, you will probably never be involved in a claim with a coverage question. And if you are, you will have the documentation to provide the insurance company.
One more point to be complete. All aviation insurers except for Avemco use brokers. So if you want to cover all the bases, after talking to your insurance broker, call Avemco and give them the same information for a quote from them.
There is no need to talk to several brokers. They will represent the same insurers and the second one will have difficulty getting a quote.
__________________
John D. Young, RV-12 Owner
Serial Number 120022, N6812Y
Bought it as a flying airplane in Feb. 2018
Just passed 240 hours flight time in RV-12, and 10,000 hours mostly in corporate jets. I am a CFI; CFII; MEI; and a advancd Ground Instructor, CFIG; and hoping to be able to help new RV-12 owners by doing some transition training for new builders and owners in RV-12's.
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11-19-2019, 09:24 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sunman, IN
Posts: 2,189
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point
"...When the adjuster got to work, he requested log book pages with the owners required CFI checkout..."
What required CFI checkout? Was this something mandated by the insurance company?
__________________
Bob
Aerospace Engineer '88
RV-10
Structure - 90% Done
Cabin Top - Aaarrghhh...
EFII System 32 - Done
297 HP Barrett Hung
ShowPlanes Cowl with Skybolts Fitted - Beautiful
Wiring...
Dues+ Paid 2019,...Thanks DR+
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